What’s in a Guarantee?

[Retazempic]

There has been a lot of consternation over Jeep’s response to the recent endotoxin failure of its T30 orange caps

There even have been calls for a boycott

But is that really the right approach?

Or is this simply a reminder that this what the grey market really is, and what we actually signed up for?

All of us knew endo wouldn’t be guaranteed by jeep

All of us knew that no other vendor does

All of us knew that endos can’t be filtered

All of us knew that “no guarantee” meant “no guarantee whether endo is 2eu or 2000eu”

All of us knew that no guarantee on endo means we might have to throw away a $120 kit

Jeep’s message was worded poorly. It doesn’t sit well emotionally. I’m human, so I feel it, too.

But this literally was the deal all purchasers made

To expect a change now is unreasonable

And as someone who has spent thousands on peps and still has yet to chuck a single kit bc of endotoxins, I know I’ve come out ahead on the risk I assumed when I bought without an endo guarantee

As far as I know, Jeep has never reneged on its mass and purity guarantee. In fact, they regularly compensate testers for the cost of the test in addition to giving a refund on short product. Nor have they ever asked for more money from any customer if a test revealed an overfill.

Why in the world would we boycott such a vendor?

Trust me, it’s hard for me to say it all. I still think they should do something because we are not all robots and we don’t make our decisions simply based on the dollars and cents.

There is also this general sense that they are profiting off of our desire to be healthy, and this just points out the fact that they don’t care about our health, they only give a sh*t about the money

And that feels gross

But that literally is what we paid for

 

[littledragon25]

For me it isn't about the lack of refund etc.

As you said, we all know what no guarantee means.

However, they have some serious failings in their system that this highlighted - the never ending batch numbers for one. And that hasn't been addressed.

Then there is the total non-response where current batch is concerned - are they going to test it or just continue to sell it despite the fact there is clearly a huge issue somewhere in the production line?

I do not expect a guarantee or a refund on endotoxin. I do expect that when a record breaking hole in the system is flagged to them they offer a better solution than 'we aren't Eli Lilly lol '

 

[Retazempic]

We all can and should demand better

I just don’t know that we’re going to get it

Lack of accountability is certainly a structural problem endemic to black markets

I guess we’ll have to see how things shake out in our particular grey market

 

[Grogu]

I feel that expectations are too low on grey manufacturers. When I was in the compound tirzepatide market, it seemed like people were willing to put up with a bunch of things because we were just so grateful to obtain our medications for 1/2 the price of brand. Shady telemedicine companies, dubious compounders, etc. As if we were dealing with illegal drugs.

With grey, I get it, the quality assurances are less than what you expect from a pharmaceutical grade manufacturer, but shouldn’t they be making and supplying a product that doesn’t have the possibility of causing serious harm. If the endotoxins are what they are with this batch, someone could literally die or put someone in the hospital. I’m not saying everyone, maybe someone with an autoimmune disorder or other condition. That’s a dangerous situation, not just ann overfill or underfill issue.

We still pay good money on these products, I don’t think asking for better is too much. For this batch we’re not talking about asking for no endos, we’re talking about asking for not a harmful level. I have kits that have elevated levels of endos, and I understand that that’s part of the market.

If Jeep “gets away” with this, it will send a message to all of the other manufacturers, that we’re willing to accept harmful products. Didn’t Uther just intimate this recently?

 

[Retazempic]

I feel that expectations are too low on grey manufacturers. When I was in the compound tirzepatide market, it seemed like people were willing to put up with a bunch of things because we were just so grateful to obtain our medications for 1/2 the price of brand. Shady telemedicine companies, dubious compounders, etc. As if we were dealing with illegal drugs.

With grey, I get it, the quality assurances are less than what you expect from a pharmaceutical grade manufacturer, but shouldn’t they be making and supplying a product that doesn’t have the possibility of causing serious harm. If the endotoxins are what they are with this batch, someone could literally die or put someone in the hospital. I’m not saying everyone, maybe someone with an autoimmune disorder or other condition. That’s a dangerous situation, not just ann overfill or underfill issue.

We still pay good money on these products, I don’t think asking for better is too much. For this batch we’re not talking about asking for no endos, we’re talking about asking for not a harmful level. I have kits that have elevated levels of endos, and I understand that that’s part of the market.

If Jeep “gets away” with this, it will send a message to all of the other manufacturers, that we’re willing to accept harmful products. Didn’t Uther just intimate this recently?

I think vendors like Jeep will never guarantee endo unless the ppl they buy from guarantee endo for THEM.

Assuming Jeep is just a retailer, it has zero control over manufacturing practices, and zero control over quality control during production.

It can’t guarantee something it has no control over.

That is like playing Russian roulette with their own business

 

[Ruckus4519]

'we aren't Eli Lilly lol '

I just read that announcement. Damn you weren’t kidding huh “Remember guys, we’re not Lilly! and also, we’re not Lilly! ”

Like damn yall really think that’s the standard you’re being compared to?

Didn’t they recently jack up prices bc people tested their products and were very happy with the results?

 

[Grogu]

I think vendors like Jeep will never guarantee endo unless the ppl they buy from guarantee endo for THEM.

Assuming Jeep is just a retailer, it has zero control over manufacturing practices, and zero control over quality control during production.

It can’t guarantee something it has no control over.

That is like playing Russian roulette with their own business

I don’t think vendors or manufacturers need to be held to a no or low endotoxin level, just levels that don’t have the potential of killing or seriously harming someone, big difference. I have a couple of kits that have higher (than I would like) endotoxins. Okay, I’m willing to accept that for the price I paid. Dangerous levels of endotoxins is totally different in my mind.

We hold retailers in the US to stand by their products even if they don’t manufacturer the products. If you buy something at Costco, they aren’t the manufacturer, and if you’re unhappy with a product you return it to Costco and they take it up with the manufacturer. Jeep needs to go back to their manufacturer and figure this out. Just my opinion.

And before I get any grief that grey isn’t like Costco, okay, I agree. People will say these are research products and not intended for human consumption, okay, but these products should also not have the potential for killing our research subjects, rats, etc.

 

[Retazempic]

I don’t think vendors or manufacturers need to be held to a no or low endotoxin level, just levels that don’t have the potential of killing or seriously harming someone, big difference. I have a couple of kits that have higher (than I would like) endotoxins. Okay, I’m willing to accept that for the price I paid. Dangerous levels of endotoxins is totally different in my mind.

We hold retailers in the US to stand by their products even if they don’t manufacturer the products. If you buy something at Costco, they aren’t the manufacturer, and if you’re unhappy with a product you return it to Costco and they take it up with the manufacturer. Jeep needs to go back to their manufacturer and figure this out. Just my opinion.

And before I get any grief that grey isn’t like Costco, okay, I agree. People will say these are research products and not intended for human consumption, okay, but these products should also not have the potential for killing our research subjects, rats, etc.

What’s would be the eu guarantee for endotoxins, when dangerous level means something different based on very individual person’s weight?

 

[Grogu]

What’s would be the eu guarantee for endotoxins, when dangerous level means something different based on very individual person’s weight?

I think independent limits set by health agencies would probably be most appropriate than some arbitrary numbers. Perhaps the FDA endotoxin clearance limits and CDC information on average body weights.

So for example, currently FDA approved max dose for tirzepatide is 15mg. Average sized human in the US is 84kg. Using these numbers in the FDA’s endotoxin equation, the max endotoxins for this batch of T30 is 840 EUs for the entire vial.

The fact that I’m taking 18mg isn’t Jeep’s problem or the manufacturer’s problem. I take that risk knowingly. But the product should be safe up to the maximum FDA dose.

 

[Retazempic]

I think independent limits set by health agencies would probably be most appropriate than some arbitrary numbers. Perhaps the FDA endotoxin clearance limits and CDC information on average body weights.

So for example, currently FDA approved max dose for tirzepatide is 15mg. Average sized human in the US is 84kg. Using these numbers in the FDA’s endotoxin equation, the max endotoxins for this batch of T30 is 840 EUs for the entire vial.

The fact that I’m taking 18mg isn’t Jeep’s problem or the manufacturer’s problem. I take that risk knowingly. But the product should be safe up to the maximum FDA dose.

Apparently, the gap between “should” and “is” can only be bridged with regulatory enforcement and exorbitant pharmaceutical prices

 

[5byfive]

Bad "apology" or not there is obviously a problem somewhere in their supply chain. It doesn't matter that no one else has a guarantee, it matters that no one else has been shown to have this big a problem. I would not buy from them or anyone else that is likely to share that supply chain. There are too many other good places that haven't had that issue.

 

[Retazempic]

How do we find out which vendors use better supply chains?

And I expect to see more results like this in the near future, precisely because many vendors source from the same places

 

[Grogu]

Apparently, the gap between “should” and “is” can only be bridged with regulatory enforcement and exorbitant pharmaceutical prices

This isn’t a matter that we’re supposed to accept grey at any quality or lack thereof, or big pharma. There is also a vendor and their supplier doing the right thing.

I had a way less serious situation with a vendor and a test group that I led. We tested 3 vials and one of those three came back with really high overfill. This vendor guarantees both over and underfill. Replaced all our kits.

This is not that difficult. Jeep and THEIR supplier need to do the right thing and replace these kits. No regulatory enforcement needed.

 

[woundcarping]

…To expect a change now is unreasonable…

Aside from the last two paragraphs being repeated, this is the main thing that stuck out.

A free market votes with its dollars. From my reading, just a couple years ago mass and purity wasn’t a guarantee.

Expecting buyers are powerless to pressure change is short sided. It’s also reasonable that the first grey suppliers to guarantee endo can charge a premium for filling the market demand… if it presents itself.

 

[Grogu]

Aside from the last two paragraphs being repeated, this is the main thing that stuck out.

A free market votes with its dollars. From my reading, just a couple years ago mass and purity wasn’t a guarantee.

Expecting buyers are powerless to pressure change is short sided. It’s also reasonable that the first grey suppliers to guarantee endo can charge a premium for filling the market demand… if it presents itself.

This is exactly correct. Market forces will dictate. Ultimately what Jeep does or doesn’t do will likely predict their future.

 

[5byfive]

How do we find out which ven dors better supply chains?

I posted some work I've done in the Endotoxin thread. I will be making a new post when I'm off newbie status. I also have new data I'll add this weekend. I plan to keep refining the model.

 

[CandyCap]

At this point, they have provided a product with potentially harmful levels.

Their response shows lack of integrity

We vote with our dollars.

In the end, if someone does get hurt, it has potential to bring on even further scrutiny to gray (like there isn't enough right now with the big pharma crackdown). This hurts all of us.

I am not saying " Be a Karen, go complain to the FDA"....but as customers we hold a certain amount of power.

Demanding product that isn't going to kill us is not asking for too much.

 

[ltjltj]

We all can and should demand better

I just don’t know that we’re going to get it

Lack of accountability is certainly a structural problem endemic to black markets

I guess we’ll have to see how things shake out in our particular grey market

I mean better includes buying from someone who doesn't have an Endo result >2300EU in a vial of T30. We have that, broadly, from many. Tirz is not made recombinantly, this is a gross failure, so even though others may not offer Endo guarantees, I'll buy from someone who hasn't screwed up this badly (yet). If/when they do, depending on their response, I'll potentially re-evaluate again.

 

[Beardboost]

People are over reacting and you really do need to be patient with JEEP, so far they have been communicating very well instead of hiding, you know full well other Grey suppliers will have similar issues when tested, just JEEP has been the first to come to light, they are still a ''middle man'' that get supplied from a factory, which the majority of Grey sellers get the supply from a similar chain, so directing anger towards JEEP on her post is outright childish, I can promise you other sellers are now worried because of the light being on JEEP currently, you have to remember this is a grey market, expect issues, but also expect forgiveness when problems are addressed correctly.

 

[littledragon25]

People are over reacting and you really do need to be patient with JEEP, so far they have been communicating very well instead of hiding, you know full well other Grey suppliers will have similar issues when tested, just JEEP has been the first to come to light, they are still a ''middle man'' that get supplied from a factory, which the majority of Grey sellers get the supply from a similar chain, so directing anger towards JEEP on her post is outright childish, I can promise you other sellers are now worried because of the light being on JEEP currently, you have to remember this is a grey market, expect issues, but also expect forgiveness when problems are addressed correctly.

The problem hasn't been addressed correctly though. Jeep put out a nothing statement basically saying 'sucks to be you' to everyone.

Nobody honestly expects refunds. But we do expected the people who sold potentially lethal kits to at least find out where the failure came from so it can be put right. That hasn't happened. It's just 'well we aren't Eli Lilly'... That isn't exactly assuring people they're going to take action to ensure safety in the future is it?