The Truth about "Calories"

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tubby

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Regulars here have probably noticed that I'm a bit flippant and dismissive when it comes to people discussing CICO or calories. Those without extensive backgrounds in exploring different dietary theories probably scratch their heads when they see this, since the discussion of calories is so pervasive in popular diet and weight loss culture and is so strongly pushed by nutritionists and the medical community at large. I believe that I'm dismissive of it for good reason, but thought others who haven't explored the dark corners that I have may wonder what my rationale is and whether it's grounded in logic or magical thinking. Hopefully this post will give the reader something interesting to chew on (and maybe even swallow). Note that I'll be purposely oversimplifying several things here and leaving out certain details to avoid making this more complicated than is necessary. I want my descriptions to be something a non-technical person can follow without having to look up and learn unfamiliar jargon.

In general, energy conservation principles have been highly successful in physics, chemistry, and represent one of the core assumptions behind thermodynamics. If energy conservation were to be broken then thermodynamics would fail and that hasn't happened thus far. When people speak of calories, they're talking about a measure of energy stored in the foods we eat. Specifically, if you take that food and combust (burn) it, a researcher can measure how much heat energy is released using a device called a bomb calorimeter. They start with a piece of food, apply a certain amount of energy to it (in order to burn it), and then measure how many degrees the whole thing heated up. If it heats up more than would have been expected from just the energy applied to it then that additional energy is said to be the "food energy" or calories that were contained in the food. For example if enough energy was applied to heat up the sample by 50 degrees, but it instead heats up by 70 degrees, the extra 20 degrees of heat would be assumed to have come from the food burning. That 20 degree difference would be what the "calories" in a food are calculated from.

If our stomachs were blast furnaces and the goal was only to keep our bodies warm then measuring calories consumed would actually make a lot of sense, since converting fuel to heat is a 100% efficient process, which is to say that every calorie of energy stored in something can be converted to heat if desired. However, since our bodies also do so many other things beyond staying warm, it becomes necessary to unpack the concepts of work and efficiency. Driving a car could be a helpful analogy here. It turns out that of the energy stored in the gasoline, when it is burned in your engine, only about 20% to 30% of it can be captured in the form of useful work (e.g. making your car move), with the rest of the energy being "waste heat" that must be eliminated through your car's radiator (to avoid the engine heating up too much). If you study thermodynamics, you'll discover that any process where energy is used to perform work has that same problem in that you'll never get 100% efficiency out of such a process. Some of that energy will always be "wasted" as heat. There's a concept in thermodynamics called "entropy" that partially represents that frustrating state of affairs. For every CICO genius that likes to glibly spit out that "CICO is just the first law of thermodynamics" (conservation of energy), they conveniently seem to be ignorant of the second law of thermodynamics (entropy).

To unpack that last part a little more, if the food you ate just went into a "calorie bin" (perhaps a secret compartment underneath your stomach) and then your body burned it when necessary (maybe at 50% efficiency), then CICO would be a highly useful description. You'd just apply the 50% correction factor and it would work beautifully. In reality, different macros come with different overheads. For example, protein (despite being clocked at 4 calories/gram, just like carbohydrate) takes significantly more energy to process in your body, such that when it comes to doing work your body can't do as much work with 100 grams of protein as it could with 100 grams of carbohydrate. Now, this isn't shocking news to the CICO people, who fully acknowledge that to be the case. They choose to account for it as an increase in energy expenditure, which is a perfectly acceptable way to account for it within the CICO framework. The reason I bring it up is because it's only one minor example of the calories number printed on the side of the box not properly corresponding to the net result of you eating it. In fact, there's a phenomena known as "rabbit starvation" (Google for more info) which can occur when a person consumes too much protein (relative to carbohydrate and fat). In rabbit starvation, no matter how much protein that person consumes, their body is unable to effectively use it or store it, leading to them wasting away. This is a simple example of what I would dub hormonal influence overriding CICO. Although all energy is ultimately accounted for (nothing magical is happening here), the body is running in a way where too much energy is being wasted, leading to a starvation effect.

Another clue that the CICO story might not be the best framework for predicting weight changes would be type 1 diabetes. In this condition (prior to insulin injections being available), the body becomes unable to produce insulin. This leads to a vicious cycle in which other hormones cause the body to rapidly waste and dump energy. Specifically, blood sugar goes sky high, but none of it can get into the cells of your body to feed them (due to the lack of insulin). Your cells signal to the liver that they're starving for sugar, so instead of diverting into other fuel types, the liver just keeps making more sugar. Meanwhile, the kidneys filter it out of your blood and into your urine to try to save your other organs from the risks of excessively high blood sugar. If your body was instead smart enough to stop making more sugar and instead meet its energy needs using fat and ketones, a type 1 diabetic could likely survive much longer without insulin. Instead, their hormonal signaling is trapped by high glucagon levels and rapid weight loss and wasting away ensues. This claim (that high glucagon is ultimately the trap) is proven by recent studies involving the use of glucagon suppressing drugs in type 1 diabetic rats. When given the drug those rats to survive and live normal lives at normal blood sugar levels!

Yet another clue is the phenomena known as "fat fasting." In fat fasting a person consumes only fat (with very minimal carbohydrate or protein) for some period of time. Because of the lack of carbohydrate and protein, that person's insulin levels stay lower than normal. They wouldn't get as low as a type 1 diabetic, of course. Also their livers would produce some carbohydrate for them, such that their blood sugar levels wouldn't drop excessively low. I don't endorse this particular diet, but just note that engaging in it does lead to weight loss, despite the massive numbers of calories that person consumes while on it.

I could keep going here, but I think I've made my point that hormonal influences are ultimately what drive weight change results. At no point is CICO ever violated in any of those examples, it just fails to be a useful tool in predicting weight changes when hormones are manipulated. Now had those people been hooked up to sophisticated machinery capable of monitoring and detecting changes in "calories out," as I said, CICO would hold and be proven true. Unfortunately, most of us don't have that equipment laying around in our spare bedrooms. If we did, we could try different behaviors or diets and see which ones bumped up calories out, but alas, that is not an option. We're mostly limited to watching a number on the scale and noting what behaviors tend to make it go up over time and what behaviors tend to make it go down. CICO is perfect at explaining weight loss results after the fact. If you lost Y pounds last month then by definition your calorie deficit averaged X calories per day. However, if you tell me that you're going to eat a certain number of calories every day for the next month, without knowing the specific foods you'll be eating, it would be impossible for me to predict the end result from calories alone. For all I know, you could be fat fasting that month, or you could be consuming things that raise or lower your metabolic rate. People encountering weight loss stalls are well aware of this frustrating state of affairs.

One last thing I'll add before closing is that many people assume that GLP weight loss (hormone manipulation) leads to weight loss results fully predicted by calories alone. Although the reduction in how much you're eating certain is a key factor there, it's not the full story. Another major part of the story is that GLPs do slightly tip your metabolism towards a higher rate. This is demonstrated in a rodent study in which the weight of GLP rats VS "calorie matched" rats are tracked over time. The GLP rats were allowed to eat as much chow as they wanted to. Meanwhile, the "calorie matched" rats, instead of getting a GLP, had their meals cut back to match the amount of food that the GLP rats were eating. That is to say that both the GLP and the "calorie matched" rats consumed the same exact number of calories (and it was the exact same food). Despite being calorie-matched, the GLP rats lost significantly more weight (and faster) than the "calorie matched" group. And this was pre-reta, so no glucagon-agonism was occurring, which would have made such an effect even larger.
 
TL;DR: CICO is completely valid and correct in accounting for weight loss results AFTER THE FACT, it's just not a horribly useful tool for achieving actual weight loss. You never needed to know what a calorie was in order to conclude that if you kept eating the same thing (but less of it) that you'd likely lose weight. That was always self-evident. CICO thinking tends to trap people into a belief that what specific foods they choose to eat is irrelevant, when it is in fact very relevant.
 
This was super interesting! Thank you for writing this up.

I don't enough biology/physics knowledge to comment on those aspects of your post but I do remember watching a documentarya while back about how different peoples' bodies can respond very differently to a drastic increase in calories, with some people gaining fat, some inexplicably gaining muscle with no extra exercise, some people feeling sick enough to vomit out the extra calories, and some people gaining little of any kind of weight (possibly fidgeting away the calories), etc. Weight loss certainly isn't a simple formula as some people make it out to be.
 
Excellent summary !

A great portion of the population still feel CICO is the do all and end all.

Tweaking metabolic pathways c GLP-1s is much more than CICO.

Thanks again for the analysis !
 
Sure but it works pretty good for the majority of people. Which is a good reason to keep using it. Again this is literally checkers not chess. Track what you eat, track your weight, keep up a deficit.

Since calories is readily available information that makes it easy for people to use. The fact that it isn't as binary as people (may) think is largely irrelevant for 99.9%.

Posts like this just get more people to think that they are some sort of anatomical snowflake unicorn. Anytime I see someone posting with a title about "Truth" I just roll my eyes.

"You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everything else." - TD

**I don't disagree with your premise but I do disagree with tossing out calories as a useful tool because it isn't the whole story. The tool is still useful.

​[archived internal link]
 
yrrdead said:
Sure but it works pretty good for the majority of people. Which is a good reason to keep using it. Again this is literally checkers not chess. Track what you eat, track your weight, keep up a deficit.

Since calories is readily available information that makes it easy for people to use. The fact that it isn't as binary as people (may) think is largely irrelevant for 99.9%.

Posts like this just get more people to think that they are some sort of anatomical snowflake unicorn. Anytime I see someone posting with a title about "Truth" I just roll my eyes.

"You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everything else." - TD

**I don't disagree with your premise but I do disagree with tossing out calories as a useful tool because it isn't the whole story. The tool is still useful.

No one is debating that CICO might help some people and no one is saying everyone on Earth needs to toss calories out entirely as a useful tool. You seemed to have completely failed to understand the post while applying a bunch of completely weird and irrelevant personal grievances that has nothing to do with what was written here.

I personally think people should have access to accurate information and it should be up to them (not you) what is "irrelevant" to them. Apparently now understanding biology, hormones, and how your own body works now makes you a "snowflake."
 
as someone who has had a couple debates with and i think also against you about these things in threads past, i think this is written very well but would like to ad one more thing.

calories in is not 100% representative of the calories you are sending down to your stomach, rather the amount of calories your body can process. there are many foods that are simply not digestible like fiber, those pesky corn husks lol or certain fats that will just pass through your GI tract, or less digestible to certain people depending on their stomach enzymes and many factors such as insulin resistance. this error can lead to people being noticeably off in their calorie counting and getting stuck thinking they cant maintain weightless. that doesn't make the entire CICO idea incorrect rather you just have the wrong numbers.

a similar thing can also take place on the calories out part. when you are in a caloric deficit your body will do a great job at trying to preserve its energy expenditure by reducing overall movement. little things like tapping your food and flipping your pen while at work. this also isnt normally taken into account and can further exacerbate the math errors. i know personally when i lost 100lbs back in my early 20s before GLPs the day after a heavy squat day i would be so tired at work i would sit down at break and just stare at the wall, and even forget to breath sometimes like i had some sort of walking apnea and would gasp for air simply because i was holding my breathe for no reason.

you can even see them account for this in the Minnesota starvation experiment in the 40s. the diets had to be adjusted to fit each participant personally to keep everyone on the same 25% weight reduction.

all to say there are several reasons the CICO model could be inaccurate from a personal perspective but if you knew all those factors and could account for them accurately then it would be easy for everyone to implement and i think there would be far less arguing about the subject
 
yrrdead said:
"You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everything else." - TD
Great reminder for dealing with vendors, since that is what they think of us, haha.
 
I guess the real question is, does modifying macronutrient intake alter internal physiology in such a way as to encourage obesity reduction in the long term.

There is definite evidence that ketogenic diets reduce appetite, ketones act directly on brain satiety and hunger circuitry to reduce hunger, but the effect is not very large, and likely quite a lot less than GLP drugs. I have not seen much in the way of long term studies showing persistent substantial weight loss ( years ) from any type of diet and exercise, beyond 5-10%, but if you have large scale studies showing this feel free to show them.

The problem that people have with CICO is partly that peoples' estimates or calculations of calorie intake are extremely inaccurate, so the numbers often do not seem to add up. And people rarely take into account the size of the effect of weight loss on energy expenditure, caused by both loss of metabolically active tissue and by reduction in energy expenditure as a response to prolonged low calorie input, or the fact that this low energy expenditure state can persist for years or indefinitely after massive weight loss.

At 145kg my calculated rate of weight loss matched perfectly with the calorie deficit calculated from very simple tools, at 6kg per month. It was only many months later that a major mismatch occurred due to a very large reduction in energy expenditure so that the exact same calorie intake caused zero weight loss once I got to 75kg. Most calculators are not going to show a 50% drop in energy expenditure after weight loss, or that that lowered expenditure would persist for 3 years afterwards.

I think it is possible to some extent to manipulate hunger responses by controlling types of food eaten and in what patterns, but my approach is more on preventing fluctuations in nutrient intake or hormonal responses by consistent intake and avoidance of glycaemic loads, and avoidance of calorie dense foods, which is a very different approach to more keto style diets.
 
I’ve been a proponent of CICO on this forum. I must admit that I’ve never really focused on the CO aspect except at a very high level. I don’t increase CI in response to any extra expenditure, thermogenesis, or hormonal changes, but have decreased CI at the macro level in response to a >100lbs weight loss.

Bottom line is that all I want to do is lose weight and I’ve found that controlling CI is key, at least for me. If there is another way of losing weight without managing CI, then I’m open to discussing that. Is there an actual plan that is being promoted or is this all just theoretical?
 
I really like listening to the Stronger by Science podcast and they often discuss the various studies on this topic. It is definitely a complicated and fascinating topic. How many calories you get from the food you eat as well as how many calories your body burns doing various activities is different for everyone. For example TDEE calculators can have huge errors for so many reasons yet you see them bandied about like the gospel by so many people online.
 
tubby said:
TL;DR: CICO is completely valid and correct in accounting for weight loss results AFTER THE FACT, it's just not a horribly useful tool for achieving actual weight loss. You never needed to know what a calorie was in order to conclude that if you kept eating the same thing (but less of it) that you'd likely lose weight. That was always self-evident. CICO thinking tends to trap people into a belief that what specific foods they choose to eat is irrelevant, when it is in fact very relevant.
Another factor is that two people are not going to have the same digestive efficiency. If that can affect nutrient absorption, the same has to be true for calories.
 
yrrdead said:
Sure but it [CICO] works pretty good for the majority of people.
Does it? CICO is the dominant weight loss narrative promoted in mainstream literature and is widely known. If it worked pretty good GLPs wouldn't be as popular as they are.

bbbilly said:
there are many foods that are simply not digestible like fiber, those pesky corn husks lol or certain fats that will just pass through your GI tract [...] that doesn't make the entire CICO idea incorrect rather you just have the wrong numbers. [...] all to say there are several reasons the CICO model could be inaccurate from a personal perspective but if you knew all those factors and could account for them accurately then it would be easy for everyone to implement and i think there would be far less arguing about the subject
To be fair to them, this is actually accounted for to some degree by the calories people. To avoid overcomplicating my explanation of a bomb calorimeter I left out the correction factors that get applied to the result. One of them is estimating the "fiber" content and subtracting the calories that result from burning the fiber. This is imperfect in the sense that digestibility will vary across different types of fiber and your microbiome can in some instances convert fiber to fats (which your body could digest). Plant protein "calories" are also questionable too in the sense that it's arrived at by measuring total nitrogen in a sample and not all nitrogen present is packaged inside of protein. Much could be improved in trying to apply correction factors if one wanted to harden and make the calories model better comport to reality. But even then, calories will still come secondary to hormones (and perhaps other influences). You can improve upon your measurements, but calories will still represent an upper-limit on energy available rather than a strong indication of how your body will process it.

lessthanhalf said:
I guess the real question is, does modifying macronutrient intake alter internal physiology in such a way as to encourage obesity reduction in the long term.
That is the million dollar question and I don't think macronutrient ratios (at least alone) are themselves the answer. I view keto as a proof of concept that manipulating blood insulin levels can be an effective tool for achieving weight loss. Nobody wants to induce type 1 diabetes as a weight loss strategy (although it would be highly effective). At the same time, lowering blood insulin and keeping it low (via keto) creates a situation where weight loss can occur fairly rapidly, even on a "high calorie" diet.

When you define a diet based on macros, you conflate a lot of things that really shouldn't be conflated. For example, sugar is very different from starch. When you consume starch your body can readily break it down to glucose (which almost every cell in your body can use). When you consume sugar, it's a 50:50 mix of glucose and fructose. Very few cells in your body can utilize fructose and it's very similar to alcohol in the sense that it will require processing by your liver to convert it into a more useful nutrient. At the same time, high blood fructose levels can be even more damaging that similar blood glucose levels, so it's probably not great in high quantities. And that's not even touching on the hormonal impact. Consider that most of the fructose in nature has traditionally been available in the fall. Some hypothesis that fructose and omega 6 fats (which was mostly found in nuts before modern industry) in the diet could be a signal to mammals that we're in the late-summer to fall season, which would be an excellent time to store excess body fat to prepare for a winter ahead where food access may be more limited. In fact, there is evidence in some hibernating animals (tree squirrels, specifically) that without access to omega 6 fats in the diet, they'll fail to successfully enter hibernation and will die in the winter. This are hasn't been explored as much as I would like, but to conflate all of the different fats out there as just being "fat" may end up getting us in trouble and stopping us from reaching conclusions that we might reach if we properly differentiate between them.

lessthanhalf said:
The problem that people have with CICO is partly that peoples' estimates or calculations of calorie intake are extremely inaccurate, so the numbers often do not seem to add up. And people rarely take into account the size of the effect of weight loss on energy expenditure, caused by both loss of metabolically active tissue and by reduction in energy expenditure as a response to prolonged low calorie input, or the fact that this low energy expenditure state can persist for years or indefinitely after massive weight loss.
Even if one is rigorous and uses a food scale to measure everything they eat, calories are at best a crude estimate themselves. Admittedly, it's a slightly better estimate with highly processed food. When you're just packing pulverized wheat product, refined fat, and sugar together into a slab of food-like product, it's going to be very bioavailable and you can probably be a little more confident that the calories measured on the label isn't too far off. When one eats real food, it's a little more of a crapshoot in regards to bioavailability.

And you just hit on a major crux of my argument. Since "calories out" is such a wildcard and unknown, it's simply going to be unknowable for most people. Without sophisticated equipment to try to estimate it, calories out becomes a derived quantity. One can calculate your average calories out for the last month, but they can't directly measure it. They would do that by tracking calories in for the last month, comparing that against weight lost, and then using that to infer what average calories out must have been. But doing so doesn't tell them what their calories out will be for the next month. This is similar to the investing world where it's very easy to come up with stories for why the S&P went up or down yesterday, but much harder to predict if the S&P will go up or down tomorrow. How can one "do CICO" if CO is an unknown quantity? When someone say they're doing CICO what they're really doing is trying to keep CI below a certain level and hoping and praying that CO remains stable enough to allow for weight loss.

Grogu said:
Bottom line is that all I want to do is lose weight and I’ve found that controlling CI is key, at least for me. If there is another way of losing weight without managing CI, then I’m open to discussing that. Is there an actual plan that is being promoted or is this all just theoretical?
I would argue (similar to my response to yrrdead) that if CICO was effective then you and I wouldn't be in this forum chasing hormonal solutions to weight loss. And I don't have the answer to what the solution is. If I did I would have led with that. When I do know is that there's a LOT of interesting research out there showing surprising influences that different foods can have in regards to weight changes. I've brought up keto as a proof of concept before. I'm not selling keto because although it's kind of on the right track, I know people who have gained weight on it too. There's something there, but it's not fully nailed down yet.
 
tubby said:
I would argue (similar to my response to yrrdead) that if CICO was effective then you and I wouldn't be in this forum chasing hormonal solutions to weight loss. And I don't have the answer to what the solution is. If I did I would have led with that. When I do know is that there's a LOT of interesting research out there showing surprising influences that different foods can have in regards to weight changes. I've brought up keto as a proof of concept before. I'm not selling keto because although it's kind of on the right track, I know people who have gained weight on it too. There's something there, but it's not fully nailed down yet.

CICO isn't going to work long-term if there is an underlying metabolic disorder, same reason wishful thinking doesn't fix clinical depression. You can't just think happy thoughts when there's a biochemical imbalance driving the problem. Sometimes medication is required to correct it. Obesity works the same way. GLP-1 agonists aren't a shortcut, they're correcting the upstream dysregulation that made appetite unmanageable in the first place. That's why we're here.
 
Always took CICO at face value and never really thought deeper on it so this was a good read. The science behind this seems to be growing and I hope we see more individualized metabolic research down the road. I think the long term play is personalized protocols tailored to your specific metabolism rather than any one size fits all approach.
 
Grogu said:
CICO isn't going to work long-term if there is an underlying metabolic disorder
Perhaps I'm confused on what you mean when you say "CICO." Most use it to represent the belief that by controlling "calories in" and assuming "calories out" will remain fairly constant, that they can predict future weight loss results based on the difference between those numbers. Are you meaning something else when you say it? Because it doesn't require a metabolic disorder for it to fail to work (predictively). In fact, people without a metabolic disorder will experience the greatest degree of failure, since their bodies will be the most adaptable when it comes to coping balancing metabolism against changing energy inputs.

RJ760 said:
I hope we see more individualized metabolic research down the road.

In terms of dietary levels, I'm not sure we'll see much progress there, sadly, although pharma will keep advancing for sure. There are two major issues holding back research on dietary factors:

1: If there was an ideal diet for you to follow that allowed you to return to a normal weight without significant effort, helping you discover such a diet would tank profits for the entire healthcare sector, which is primarily fixated on maximizing subscribers to their various forms of chronic disease management. Nobody in industry or controlled by industry (virtual all working researchers) has a financial incentive to solve that problem (if it is solvable). The same is true of government, which generally tries to serve the interests of lobbyists. Unless some billionaire takes it up as a personal passion project, it's not getting studied.

2: Let's say we eliminated 1 and diet could be studied, you'd still be blocked from doing any real research on the subject by ethics review boards. There was a woman in Britain named Isabell Cooper who has done interesting research in the ketogenic diet space. She wanted to run a study on the effect of changing people from the standard diet to a ketogenic diet, but could not get the study design approved. They refused to let her test such a dangerous and unstudied diet on humans (despite it being a fairly popular diet trend). In the end, the only way she was able to get her study approved was to completely reframe and redesign it. She designed a new study in which long-term ketogenic dieters were the participants and some of them were selected to switch to the standard British dietary guidelines to see how much their health would "improve." This study did get approved and led to the results you'd expect (weight gain and mostly worse biomarkers on the standard diet). The other instance of the ketogenic diet being seriously studied in modern times that I'm aware of were the Virta health studies (which started as a tech billionaire-funded passion project/business venture). Otherwise, just about every "low-carb diet" in modern times is pure nonsense in which their idea of "low carb" was maybe going down from 40% of macros to 30% of macros, which certainly isn't what most in the diet space would classify as low carb.

Again, to be clear, I'm not saying keto is the answer here, just bringing it up as an example of how difficult it is to actually study any of this stuff in the research world outside of individual people conducting N=1 self-experiments... So if you want to stay on the cutting edge, N=1 anecdotes are sadly as good as you're going to get right now. It is a depressing state of affairs.
 
tubby said:
Perhaps I'm confused on what you mean when you say "CICO." Most use it to represent the belief that by controlling "calories in" and assuming "calories out" will remain fairly constant, that they can predict future weight loss results based on the difference between those numbers. Are you meaning something else when you say it? Because it doesn't require a metabolic disorder for it to fail to work (predictively). In fact, people without a metabolic disorder will experience the greatest degree of failure, since their bodies will be the most adaptable when it comes to coping balancing metabolism against changing energy inputs.

In terms of dietary levels, I'm not sure we'll see much progress there, sadly, although pharma will keep advancing for sure. There are two major issues holding back research on dietary factors:

1: If there was an ideal diet for you to follow that allowed you to return to a normal weight without significant effort, helping you discover such a diet would tank profits for the entire healthcare sector, which is primarily fixated on maximizing subscribers to their various forms of chronic disease management. Nobody in industry or controlled by industry (virtual all working researchers) has a financial incentive to solve that problem (if it is solvable). The same is true of government, which generally tries to serve the interests of lobbyists. Unless some billionaire takes it up as a personal passion project, it's not getting studied.

2: Let's say we eliminated 1 and diet could be studied, you'd still be blocked from doing any real research on the subject by ethics review boards. There was a woman in Britain named Isabell Cooper who has done interesting research in the ketogenic diet space. She wanted to run a study on the effect of changing people from the standard diet to a ketogenic diet, but could not get the study design approved. They refused to let her test such a dangerous and unstudied diet on humans (despite it being a fairly popular diet trend). In the end, the only way she was able to get her study approved was to completely reframe and redesign it. She designed a new study in which long-term ketogenic dieters were the participants and some of them were selected to switch to the standard British dietary guidelines to see how much their health would "improve." This study did get approved and led to the results you'd expect (weight gain and mostly worse biomarkers on the standard diet). The other instance of the ketogenic diet being seriously studied in modern times that I'm aware of were the Virta health studies (which started as a tech billionaire-funded passion project/business venture). Otherwise, just about every "low-carb diet" in modern times is pure nonsense in which their idea of "low carb" was maybe going down from 40% of macros to 30% of macros, which certainly isn't what most in the diet space would classify as low carb.

Again, to be clear, I'm not saying keto is the answer here, just bringing it up as an example of how difficult it is to actually study any of this stuff in the research world outside of individual people conducting N=1 self-experiments... So if you want to stay on the cutting edge, N=1 anecdotes are sadly as good as you're going to get right now. It is a depressing state of affairs.
Fair points and hard to argue with. Depressing but probably accurate. I guess that’s part of what makes communities like this valuable though. Real people sharing real results is about as close to unbiased data as we’re going to get for a while.
 
RJ760 said:
Fair points and hard to argue with. Depressing but probably accurate. I guess that’s part of what makes communities like this valuable though. Real people sharing real results is about as close to unbiased data as we’re going to get for a while.
Another challenge that gets in the way there is that people on different diets tend to fragment into different diet-specific communities. It's not quite as isolating as religious belief, but many of the most passionate advocate of keto, vegan, carnivore, paleo, etc. that are the loudest start to wrap up the diets into their own identities and interpret attacks on their diet as attacks on them. I've found that if you can find a group that attracts people who have played around with different dietary paradigms, experienced success and frustration with each, and have a competent science background (although this is less required, honestly) those can be useful people to compare and contrast with.

At a certain point along the way I stopped looking at it as a "weight loss" pursuit so much as trying to untangle the WHY of it (modern diseases) with weight loss only being part of that. It's a more depressing approach, but I think it's the one that's more likely to lead somewhere useful.
 
Man - ya'll got an awful lot of time to kill...................... whole thing is TL;DR. T(damned)L;(Def)DR.

ymmv - LOL
 
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