Phenol vs BAC

[Labcat]

Curious if anyone uses phenol/water as their preservative to recon? It’s supposed to be a much stronger and broader spectrum agent.

Or both phenol and BAC? (I read it is how insulin, the classic peptide, goes beyond 28d)

ETA happy to discuss what and why people do what they do, but I’m not trying to change what anyone is doing, so please don’t feel like I’m challenging anyone! I have reason to decrease my own risk exposure, I’m not being critical of what anyone else is doing, in case that’s not coming across.

I do appreciate technique discussions. And also if anyone is using phenol, looking for any tips etc!

 

[penewbie]

I don't know why we'd need a stronger and more wide spectrum bac agent.

If benzyl alcohol is good enough for pharma, it's good enough for me.

 

[Labcat]

I don't know why we'd need a stronger and more wide spectrum bac agent.

If benzyl alcohol is good enough for pharma, it's good enough for me.

That’s one way to think about it, but it’s not really true about pharma?

My vials I just got from pharma use phenol.

Mounjaro kwikpen uses both.

Zepbound has neither.

So there must be a reason, and it might make a difference depending on my situation (my usage pattern or maybe the cleanliness of the powder I get).

 

[penewbie]

That’s one way to think about it, but it’s not really true about pharma?

My vials I just got from pharma use phenol.

Mounjaro kwikpen uses both.

Zepbound has neither.

So there must be a reason, and it might make a difference depending on my situation (my usage pattern or maybe the cleanliness of the powder I get).

Of course it's true.

Pharma uses BA in some medicine.

Pharma also uses phenol in some medicine.

One does not negate the other.

Theorycrafting this sort of stuff is fine, but I'd catagorize it as overthinking. BA has been demonstrably fine in both pharma and gray use cases, changing it up for some theoretical benefits is a waste of time.

 

[Labcat]

Of course it's true.

Pharma uses BA in some medicine.

Pharma also uses phenol in some medicine.

One does not negate the other.

Theorycrafting this sort of stuff is fine, but I'd catagorize it as overthinking. BA has been demonstrably fine in both pharma and gray use cases, changing it up for some theoretical benefits is a waste of time.

I asked whether anyone is doing it,

but thank you for your opinion

 

[penewbie]

You're welcome.

 

[scarywood75]

Of course it's true.

Pharma uses BA in some medicine.

Pharma also uses phenol in some medicine.

One does not negate the other.

Theorycrafting this sort of stuff is fine, but I'd catagorize it as overthinking. BA has been demonstrably fine in both pharma and gray use cases, changing it up for some theoretical benefits is a waste of time.

Don't neglecte everyone's own risk tolerance.

I don't lock my door, but I won't try to convince others that having security cameras is useless.

 

[scarywood75]

Curious if anyone uses phenol/water as their preservative to recon? It’s supposed to be a much stronger and broader spectrum agent.

Or both phenol and BAC? (I read it is how insulin, the classic peptide, goes beyond 28d)

Benzyl stops the growth of anything it touches, but does not kill anything.

Phenol may be better in some cases, but its harder to obtain (at least in Canada).

If its also hard for you to obtain, you're best bet would be to strengthen your sterile standards/procedures.

Some tips for you :

split into single dose aliquot

reconstitute in a clean room with as little as possible air movement.

clean everything you use including your hands twice.

avoid reusing the same needle/syringe when reconstituting.

use syringe filters.

work fast.

Its not possible to get to 100% sterile, but these tricks may help you.

 

[Labcat]

Benzyl stops the growth of anything it touches, but does not kill anything.

Phenol may be better in some cases, but its harder to obtain (at least in Canada).

If its also hard for you to obtain, you're best bet would be to strengthen your sterile standards/procedures.

Some tips for you :

split into single dose aliquot

reconstitute in a clean room with as little as possible air movement.

clean everything you use including your hands twice.

avoid reusing the same needle/syringe when reconstituting.

use syringe filters.

work fast.

Its not possible to get to 100% sterile, but these tricks may help you.

The physical skills and physical room mods like a box with filtered air flow do seem to be within reach of everyone. I would also add that more importantly a person is constantly shedding skin, bacteria, and aerosols, to consider wearing at least a procedure mask and cover hair, if one is going to push the envelope on your preservative.

Unfortunately I discovered it is not the case that benzyl alcohol stops everything it touches. There are some short lists of what common organisms it is more or less effective for, and suprisingly it is less effective for some of what are the contaminants around people. Sometimes what we learn is pretty good but not entirely accurate, so I’m always curious where the shortcomings might come back to bite you.

Is bacterial growth <10^11/ml visible? No. Will that affect you? Depends. Does it make endotoxin? (Butt bacteria does!). Will it consume your peptide over time? Other than glps, do many peptides have feelz, so wouldnyou even know if something became weak? These questions probably play out in different ways based on luck.

But if all you can get is benzyl alcohol, that’swhat you use! I would then suggest also sanitizing surfaces with HOCl, a better disinfectant than 70% IPA. (I’m in a place you can’t get ethanol, a woder soectrum disinfectant)

Particularly for viruses. I am starting to use that (300-500ppm) because neither benzyl alc nor phenol kills viruses at these concentrations. (Noro, rota, other enteroviruses, colds, flu, covid, etc.)

And to minimize all growths… freezing… for the stable peptides. (We can discuss mannitol in your vial puck as well.)

 

[Calm Logic]

I would then suggest also sanitizing surfaces with HOCl, a better disinfectant than 70% IPA. (I’m in a place you can’t get ethanol, a woder soectrum disinfectant)

Particularly for viruses. I am starting to use that (300-500ppm) because neither benzyl alc nor phenol kills viruses at these concentrations. (Noro, rota, other enteroviruses, colds, flu, covid, etc.)

And to minimize all growths… freezing… for the stable peptides. (We can discuss mannitol in your vial puck as well.)

Interesting.

Some tips for you :

split into single dose aliquot

reconstitute in a clean room with as little as possible air movement.

clean everything you use including your hands twice.

avoid reusing the same needle/syringe when reconstituting.

use syringe filters.

work fast.

Great tips as always. Another tip is using gloves to prevent transfer of staph and other "skin flora." Ideally, using gloves is not a substitute for hand washing, and hand washing is not a substitute for using gloves:

1. The Two Types of Skin Flora

Type of Flora Location on Skin Efficacy of Hand Washing Relevance to Peptides Transient Flora On the superficial (outer) layers of the skin. Highly Effective. These organisms are picked up from the environment (surfaces, air, etc.) and are easily suspended and physically removed by the friction of washing with soap and water. These are the most likely source of external contamination and are what hand washing primarily targets. Resident Flora Deeply attached to the skin, residing in hair follicles, oil glands, and under nails (e.g., Staphylococcus epidermidis , some S. aureus ). Reduced, but Not Eliminated. Soap and water remove some, but the population quickly re-establishes itself. More aggressive measures (like surgical scrubs or alcohol-based rubs) are needed for significant, though temporary, reduction. These are the primary organisms of concern when the skin barrier is compromised (e.g., oil/residue transfer) or when a needle touches a non-sterile part of the skin/glove.

 

[Labcat]

Interesting.

Great tips as always. Another tip is using gloves to prevent transfer of staph and other "skin flora." Ideally, using gloves is not a substitute for hand washing, and hand washing is not a substitute for using gloves:

Yes, extremely important point, gloves absolutely do not preclude washing hands. Before and after. (Remind your doctors and nurses, dentists, medical personnel of all types lol)

Gemini made a pretty good summary. One important contextual point to note however, is that you cannot remove the resident bacteria, which continues to donate staph aureus and staph epi. And if you try too much too clean, you will damage the innate skin defenses which result in unpredictable overgrowth of everything, as well as create niches to harbor incidental pathogens. This can also turn commensals aggressive and shed more copiously.

Clean gloves for the win.

 

[Labcat]

Don't neglecte everyone's own risk tolerance.

I don't lock my door, but I won't try to convince others that having security cameras is useless.

Right! Risk tolerance is more accurate is you assess more accurately. When there’s a rash of break ins, I’m more likely to lock my doors. I locked my doors, deadbolt too, when I lived in NYC.

I do like to ask my neighbors what they are seeing.

 

[IshimaruKenta]

Benzyl stops the growth of anything it touches, but does not kill anything.

Phenol may be better in some cases, but its harder to obtain (at least in Canada).

If its also hard for you to obtain, you're best bet would be to strengthen your sterile standards/procedures.

Some tips for you :

split into single dose aliquot

reconstitute in a clean room with as little as possible air movement.

clean everything you use including your hands twice.

avoid reusing the same needle/syringe when reconstituting.

use syringe filters.

work fast.

Its not possible to get to 100% sterile, but these tricks may help you.

Shit, so my kitchen counter isn't part of a clean room? Welp, I'm screwed.

 

[Calm Logic]

Cats on the counter can help the process go faster

 

[tubby]

For most this will be overkill, but since it's a fun thought problem:

It may not be as economical, but smaller dose vials could be another control measure to implement, if you're truly trying to minimize bacterial contamination. Generally speaking, it's not so much the initial bacterial contamination that you're worried about so much as the colony it might grow into over time.

I wouldn't really sweat the viruses as much, since they're a fairly constant background factor in the environment.

You could consider freezing the vials between uses. This would potentially increase the rate of peptide degradation over time, but would reduce the potential for bacterial growth. Also for poorly dissolving peptides, it might not be advised.

 

[Labcat]

For most this will be overkill, but since it's a fun thought problem:

It may not be as economical, but smaller dose vials could be another control measure to implement, if you're truly trying to minimize bacterial contamination. Generally speaking, it's not so much the initial bacterial contamination that you're worried about so much as the colony it might grow into over time.

I wouldn't really sweat the viruses as much, since they're a fairly constant background factor in the environment.

You could consider freezing the vials between uses. This would potentially increase the rate of peptide degradation over time, but would reduce the potential for bacterial growth. Also for poorly dissolving peptides, it might not be advised.

Apologies for the delay in response, I just realized my notifications don’t cover all the conversations and circled around to check my posts.

You make great points, as always. Smaller aliquots would leave less tine at fridge temps with fewer pokes to boot.

For personal use,

Viiruses will always be a problem will not be addressable if GMP is not followed.

Freezing is definitely an accessible tool, but opens up more things we have to be knowledgable about with our peptides. We are all going to be chemists at the end, solubility, pH, stability, etc.

I am always going to be more prone to throwing my compounds in the freezer due to extreme lack of confidence in their sanitary standards.

As for economical, what is a hobby if it doesn’t end up costing you extra because of all the extra cool things you can now do? . But also, thank you for pointing this out, I need to try to use up the boxes of vials I already paid for… I already feel a little bit like my setup has run ahead of my kits.

 

[Sasquatch]

The endotoxin thing, made do a deep dive.

I've already got an ozone generator. It does alot but not for etxn.

One place said UV breaks it down. Either one of these could be employed for additional cleanliness. I won't say sterility.

When you start with a cpap, they scare you into a tizzy. Then six months in, you're using motel tap water, and wiping your mask out with a shirt tail. The average person with an average immunity etc. etc . . . .But this stuff needs to be considered when/if things go sideways.

 

[Labcat]

The endotoxin thing, made do a deep dive.

I've already got an ozone generator. It does alot but not for etxn.

One place said UV breaks it down. Either one of these could be employed for additional cleanliness. I won't say sterility.

When you start with a cpap, they scare you into a tizzy. Then six months in, you're using motel tap water, and wiping your mask out with a shirt tail. The average person with an average immunity etc. etc . . . .But this stuff needs to be considered when/if things go sideways.

Motel tap water .

UV will probably also degrade our peoptides unfortunately.

If only they made a quick home test, like those lateral flow assay tests we’re all so familiar with (pregnancy, covid, and if you are not in the US you have access to tons of different ones that can test like 10 different respiratory diseases ar once.) Yes there is a gray market for tests but customs and fda came down hard on them.

 

[Labcat]

The endotoxin thing, made do a deep dive.

I've already got an ozone generator. It does alot but not for etxn.

One place said UV breaks it down. Either one of these could be employed for additional cleanliness. I won't say sterility.

When you start with a cpap, they scare you into a tizzy. Then six months in, you're using motel tap water, and wiping your mask out with a shirt tail. The average person with an average immunity etc. etc . . . .But this stuff needs to be considered when/if things go sideways.

Thinking about what you said more, a UV light might be useful to shine across the top of the workspace, just above working level, to try and kill all the DNA and RNA that might fall onto our clean things. We’d have to protect the vial contents and ourselves though.

I’m hoping the tirz eliminates my need to start cpap. But it I do, I’m going for the motel water with a sense of destiny,

 

[Sasquatch]

One could also build a glove box, pressurized with ozone.

If something smells old or not right, I put it in a bag, and pipe in the ozone.

If someone smokes in a rental or used car, they do similar.