People judge weight loss more harshly when GLP-1 drugs are involved, study finds

[Smiter]

Replacement dose TRT is in general thought to be safe, there are some studies showing increased cardiovascular risk and some showing reduced risk, the current consensus is they are likely to be safe, but there is no evidence of long term health benefits. The changes in muscle mass from replacement dose TRT are small.

A great post above. I concur with most of what was said. Once again, it comes to the studies or the paucity of them for this area. Yes, you're right. There's a dearth of studies conducted on TRT, and especially higher/overdose. Anecdotal and empirical evidence can serve in stead. Long-term health benefits include staving off sarcopenia, delayed atrophy of tendon strength.

There is no evidence that higher doses of GLP drugs are more likely to cause serious adverse effects, other than the usual well known issues like gastrointestinal side effects.

Ah, logically this would indicate that this lack would also be due to a deliberate choice not to subject people to a higher/overdose of GLp-1s. Hypoglycemia should be a most plausible effect of a dose too high. I do remember the bit about metformin being safer in this regard compared to sitagliptin, because of the mechanisms of working.

Superb discussion anyway. Love picking brains this way.

 

[Calm Logic]

I wonder what a majority of men might choose: a full life with their vim, vitality, and vigor lasting longer, or a decade-longer lifespan with the usual senescence?

The quality of one's social connections is the strongest predictor of happiness at any age. Women tend to do better than men in that department as well. But they also have more of a caregiver burden.

 

[Smiter]

Also: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7977683/

That study alludes to how lean body muscle is a "good" source to measure the amount of left ventricular hypertrophy in obese children. It's useful info, I suppose, though it bears no relevance here: a non sequitur.

Obesity, being a state of likely hormonal dysfunction, such situations are unsurprising.

 

[Smiter]

The quality of one's social connections is the strongest predictor of happiness at any age.

For people who are predisposed to an over-reliance on socialization, sure. Immediately, I am reminded of those unfortunate souls who perished because they couldn't bear the isolation of lockdowns. Some folks might experience solitude where others get lonely. I wonder whether socialization is a requirement for introverts' happiness. I see many old people suffering from the loneliness epidemic, and some research shows that the loss of a long-term spouse was the greatest predictor of isolation in this demographic.

I don't see how this bears any relevance to the original frame of the argument either. I guess when men are healthier, their social life would be better too. More energy, libido, and agency in general could be utilized for that purpose.

Interestingly, the folks who used the ALCOR life extension services were not considering social quality when they agreed to be decapitated and preserved.

 

[Calm Logic]

I don't see how this bears any relevance to the original frame of the argument either. I guess when men are healthier, their social life would be better too. More energy, libido, and agency in general could be utilized for that purpose.

It goes the other way too. More socialization enhances overall wellbeing, including health markers, energy level, etc.

Interestingly, the folks who used the ALCOR life extension services were not considering social quality when they agreed to be decapitated and preserved.

Alcor is about two hours away, haha. It is arguably a cult for mitigating death anxiety, so a sociological landscape there as well. (Once a psych major, always a psych major.)

But you are hitting on a theme of quality vs. quantity, which goes back to my YOLO criticism of the manic, self-focused bro culture, which is partially fueled by a sense of not being enough. But of course, always wanting more is the American way, at the expense of being grateful for what we do have. One can be too focused on health, lifespan, or energy levels as well (at the expense of health, lifespan, and energy levels), so plenty of paradoxes as with all of human psychology.

 

[Smiter]

Both tirzepatide and semaglutide have been shown to reduce overall mortality, or death from all causes,

To summarize, the absence of death would be synonymous with the presence of life, not the presence of life quality.

The quality of one's social connections is the strongest predictor of happiness at any age. Women tend to do better than men in that department as well.

Yes, women tend to desire socialization more than men. It's innate. Thus, they would be happy the better their social connections are. That makes sense. The biggest predictor of abuse in children happens to be the presence of a step-parent in the home, apparently. Informative, for certain. Many men do not crave or depend on socialization in their youth. It has even become a joke in stand-up comedy shows. Men can think about nothing, and it's usually men who relish solitude.

 

[Smiter]

More socialization enhances overall wellbeing, including health markers, energy level, etc.

That claim seems excessive. Wellbeing would be enhanced for those who 'need' socialization. It's logical. For an introvert, I suspect the socialization might have the opposite impact on their wellbeing that an extrovert would have.

 

[lessthanhalf]

Not sure how to quote selectively so in response to this

"To summarize, the absence of death would be synonymous with the presence of life, not the presence of life quality."

The long term health benefits of GLP drugs are very real. I suspect how real it seems might depend a bit on how close to the pointy end of those events you might be.

I think I can definitely say that tirzepatide ( plus a bit of reta and cagrilintide ) substantially contribute to my physical health , likely lifespan and healthspan and mental health.

As a result of testing , I probably have a risk of developing clinical heart failure or other serious cardiovascular disease, stroke or death somewhere around the 20-30% range over the next decade, assuming I maintain weight and take statins, ezetimibe, clopidogrel, beta blockers, ace blockers etc. Now at age 58 that is not fantastic, but were I to regain the 80 kilos I have lost, those odds start to look really awful, my best guess is my odds of getting another 10 years of reasonable health becomes very small, as in pretty unlikely.

Given every other time in my life I have got my weight to normal or near normal levels, I have managed to regain that weight, the main thing reducing that risk of putting the weight back on, which would add a lot of stress given the health implications, is GLP drugs. As I initially lost the weight without them and kept it off for a year afterwards, I know exactly how hard it is to keep the weight off, and how hard it is to keep the weight off with GLP support, which is not super easy, but I no longer have to choose multiple times every day to not eat when hungry, and it more or less works so long as I stick to eating foods in my allowed categories, and works without constant mental effort.

So not only do the GLP drugs reduce the chances of unpleasant physical illnesses in my near future, they substantially reduce the stress of worrying about it happening. And I imagine my current quality of life is better than it would be after a stroke or heart attack or heart failure. And it means I can stay the thinnest I have been since my early teens, which makes doing anything and everything easier and more pleasant, and I can do it without suffering constant hunger. So a definite win for quality of life.

The replacement dose TRT ( prescribed rather than grey ) I am also on might increase muscle a kilo or 2 , and maybe boosts energy and libido a tiny bit? But the effects are very minor compared to GLPs. The HGH I am also taking might increase muscle a tiny bit, and did seem to reduce waist circumference, and might be helping me maintain my weight, but is riskier, as even the 1.5iu I was taking turned out to be much too much possibly increasing cardiac failure risks, so now on 0.8iu and will recheck igf-1. One of the few studies on TRT and HGH in older males showed a 5% increase in lean mass from the combination of both HGH and TRT, so the effect is not huge.

 

[Smiter]

The long post makes me feel guilty for doing this, but I agree with everything in your post. You see, none of the things you said contradicts what I was talking about. No TRT usage will benefit to the potential maximum without the proper training.

P.S: As compensation- use mouse right click, drag and select the text you wanna quote, a new black dropdown will appear. Click on the 'reply' there and voila, this happens.

Not sure how to quote selectively so in response to this

 

[Smiter]

Alcor is about two hours away, haha. It is arguably a cult for mitigating death anxiety, so a sociological landscape there as well.

Oh I don't disagree, the cult-like attitude is definitely present but referencing death anxiety a sociological landscape seems akin to how sociology is mostly a pseudoscience.

YOLO criticism of the manic, self-focused bro culture, which is partially fueled by a sense of not being enough

And self-focused is the natural state of affairs for every lifeform. Evolution itself is driven by it. And like I iterated earlier, everybody lives only once. Therefore, as Maslow pointed out, the desire to achieve self-actualization and become the best versions of themselves, is inherent. It's not American, it's universal. Of course, one can become too engrossed in it, but that's true of everything. However, some people refusing to recognize that fact and attempting to indulge in a banal dismissal of individualism could be a result of fallacious, indoctrinated collectivism, which in no way contradicts the veracity of individualism. It's not bro-culture, it's human nature. In fact, the entire progress of the human species can be simplified down to the desire of humanity to better itself. The day that stops, well, a bunch of hammer and sickles will be left rusted and ignored.

so plenty of paradoxes as with all of human psychology.

Oh there are plenty of paradoxes in psychology, but not here. Just because a principle is correct, doesn't mean that its execution would be good, too. Incompetence can confound the best laid plans. That's why merit and quality ought to be rated highly. Focusing on superior quality of life is the way to go, doesn't mean that one should go overboard.

 

[Bioexplorer]

A great post above. I concur with most of what was said. Once again, it comes to the studies or the paucity of them for this area. Yes, you're right. There's a dearth of studies conducted on TRT, and especially higher/overdose. Anecdotal and empirical evidence can serve in stead. Long-term health benefits include staving off sarcopenia, delayed atrophy of tendon strength.

Actually, the published studies show just the opposite regarding test effect on tendon health. Doses above therapeutic level are strongly correlated with tendon ruptures. The root cause of failure is debated.

 

[Smiter]

Actually, the published studies show just the opposite regarding test effect on tendon health. Doses above therapeutic level are strongly correlated with tendon ruptures. The root cause of failure is debated.

Yes, because people overtrain for muscular hypertrophy without developing their tendons simultaneously. Tendons are viscoelastic and their stiffness and associated Young's modulus rises with load. Hence, why a focus on myofibrillar hypertrophy instead of the sarcoplasmic/bodybuilding growth is mandated. Also, tendons could have ruptured due to overtraining as well.. in essence, correlation and associations as seen in many studies, are moot at best. I hardly see causation ever mentioned in these studies.

 

[domin8brix]

I feel like this study is one of those "yea thanks captain obvious!"

There's so many nonsense tropes about GLPs or bariatric surgery being "cheats" or "the easy way out," and it's always repeated by someone who has zero actual knowledge about either, and of course someone always knows their dog groomer's neighbor's cousin who "died from surgery!" or whatever load of bs they regurgitate to shame someone else. What I have learned in my 48 years on earth is that if you're overweight, it was somehow decided you were unworthy to live, and you'll be told by everyone to get it together and work out. Doctors will treat you like a pariah, and blame everything on weight, even things totally unrelated to weight--especially if you're a woman, and even more if you're a woman of color. They act like you aren't aware that you're overweight, and in many cases, you're already working on it, but that's never enough. But then, they see you working on it and how dare you go to the gym as an overweight person, people mock you for being overweight working out, making obnoxious tiktoks of the earth quaking when you do something. You get approached by "coaches" and trainers out in the wild, and in your comments or DMs on whatever social site you were posted on.

GLPs and bariatric surgeries don't take the work out of it. You still have to eat right, cut your portions and work out. Losing, I've found, is the "easy part", though. Maintaining is the hardest. We've been trained (especially women and girls) all our lives to be skinny and diet culture and how we have to look a certain way in order to get a husband or be liked or be worthy of our parents' love...and my god it is exhausting . But I've had surgery AND use GLPs to help me maintain, and none of this is easy.

 

[domin8brix]

wow. can't win for losing--literally in this case. people think those things of fat folks, now they think those things of people who lose via glp-1 meds. I wonder how they feel about folks who've lost weight via surgery?

some people really believe fat people should suffer for the "sin" of being fat. so you do it the "right" way and they praise you, yea? you gain it back, see? you're just less than, try again and again and again and again, but the way they deem acceptable.

They think we took the easy way out and are even less "worthy" because of it and they make absolutely sure they tell you you're absolute trash and that their neighbor's old neighbor's cousin's dogwalker died because they took the easy way out! Tell me how it's SO EASY going on a full liquid diet for 2 weeks before someone cuts into you to cut your stomach into a tube and remove the rest, after which then you have to try to drink sips of water for a week, or other clear liquids or protein shakes that you can barely get a tiny medicine cup down in an hour. If you're lucky you get like 8oz of anything in your body in a day for months.

 

[ochoseis]

Do/Have you used Hibiclens at all? That's the brand name, I think. It's supposed to help with that condition. I was looking it up earlier because I've heard good things about it, but it might not be for me.

I have in the past. It just severely dried my skin out lol. I'm sure it helps some people but I had to get really serious about my diet (not just weight loss) and stop trying different ointments/soaps/lotions.

I am mostly under control with HS at this point. I am using glycolic acid (from the ordinary) and have noticed a lot of improvements in the scarring but it's by no means a quick fix and I don't think that it would necessarily prevent a new flare on its own.

Not sure if you have HS or not but my time line with it was basically:

Quit smoking, still fat, eating whatever - less flares.

Watching diet, eliminating trigger foods, but still fat - noticeable improvement, would go months without a flare and those flares were only isolated to my armpits.

Going from an obese BMI to overweight/normal - zero flares, would not know I had HS if it wasn't for the aftermath of it. Any time I have regained the weight I start getting new bumps, although not as severe as before with smoking & eating like garbage lol.

 

[domin8brix]

As someone who does not look good in green no matter what shade of it I try, GET THE GREEN ONE FOR MEE.

I put on a hoodie yesterday (you know, THE hoodie. The safe one that I didn't feel too fat in a year ago but was not so slowly eating my way out of...) and it was just hanging on me. I got all excited and snapped a picture and sent it to my friend group chat like, "guys! this was so tight on me! I'm doing the thing!" and everyone was super supportive except for the one "friend" who has every excuse under the sun for why she's 340lbs, snaps back with, "Better keep it, you know you'll be back at 230lbs by November "

No I won't. I'm petty.

I would seriously have responded with "and if you got started right now, you might be too!" I will respond with the deepest possible cut possible, and leave them to bleed out. And they'd never see or hear from me again.

It's evident though that she is SEETHING with envy, she felt superior to you, and then you lost weight and now her inferiority is really coming out. She didn't have success trying or isn't trying to be successful, so anything she can do to sh!t on your success makes her feel like she's regaining that queen bee position. As much as I know we need bees to maintain civilization, she's one I'd spray with pesticide.

 

[Ruckus4519]

Yes, women tend to desire socialization more than men. It's innate.

I doubt men and women are all that different when it comes to basic socialization needs. I'd argue it's more nurture than nature for this particular aspect. Society in general categorizes women to be "more emotional", "more nurturing", thus allowing and even expecting those traits from them. At the same time, men are expected to exhibit traits that are "opposite" of what women supposedly are.

 

[RoadRash]

People judge weight loss more harshly when GLP-1 drugs are involved, study finds

In four pre-registered studies across Belgium, the US, and the UK, people judged anti-obesity medication users as putting in less effort and, in turn, viewed them as less moral, competent, warm, and deserving than non-users. The findings suggest that effort moralization may help drive stigma...

www.news-medical.net

Not too surprising that society has negative connotations regarding weight-loss medications, but that people using the medications are “viewed as less moral, competent, and deserving.” is kind of sad…

Who cares. I don't give a shit what anyone thinks, frankly. I'm too old and too secure in who I am to judge others or have them judge me.

 

[Smiter]

I doubt men and women are all that different when it comes to basic socialization needs. I'd argue it's more nurture than nature for this particular aspect. Society in general categorizes women to be "more emotional", "more nurturing", thus allowing and even expecting those traits from them. At the same time, men are expected to exhibit traits that are "opposite" of what women supposedly are.

Yeah, it's similar to the Meads vs Freeman debate. But the evidence is clear and has been studied in multiple instances. As a collective, most women choose jobs that deal with people, while men choose professions that are object-oriented. The top 20 careers chosen by women even today reflect this. It's well known that women crave social affirmation, and this is reflected in social media trends too. The kind of games played as children also highlights this phenomenon. "Basic" socialization needs are therefore, not all that basic. On average there are 40% introverts in any populace. Their socialization needs would not be all that "needy". Btw, it is interesting to note that this 40% becomes 75% when looking at the number of introverts among high-IQ people.

 

[Smiter]

I doubt men and women are all that different when it comes to basic socialization needs. I'd argue it's more nurture than nature for this particular aspect. Society in general categorizes women to be "more emotional", "more nurturing", thus allowing and even expecting those traits from them. At the same time, men are expected to exhibit traits that are "opposite" of what women supposedly are.

Also, for the topic, do you think that this "socialization need" many people have makes them more vulnerable to the inane and insane jibes of others about using "shortcuts & cheats"? I, for one, freely posit that my INTJ personality type renders me near immune to that sort of thing. There's another reason too, in my case, which can be hazardous if erroneously used, but that's irrelevant here.