Let's talk GLP1's downfall - MUSCLE LOSS
- Thread starter tul9033
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Calm Logic
GLP-1 Specialist
Bringing this thread from the dead.
I just noticed Atkins has been putting "GLP-1 Friendly" on their red Atkins Strong 30G protein shakes (but other brands like Fairlife taste better for that much protein).
Weight Loss Medication & High-Protein Lifestyles | Atkins®
Discover Atkins® high-protein options to suit your lifestyle with weight loss medications. Let Atkins® fuel your body with the nutrition it needs.
www.atkins.com
Atkins and Weight Loss Medications: Before, During and After | @Atkins
Set the stage for success by establishing healthy habits to maximize and maintain your weight goals.
www.atkins.com
I just noticed Atkins has been putting "GLP-1 Friendly" on their red Atkins Strong 30G protein shakes (but other brands like Fairlife taste better for that much protein).
Weight Loss Medication & High-Protein Lifestyles | Atkins®
Discover Atkins® high-protein options to suit your lifestyle with weight loss medications. Let Atkins® fuel your body with the nutrition it needs.
www.atkins.com
Atkins and Weight Loss Medications: Before, During and After | @Atkins
Set the stage for success by establishing healthy habits to maximize and maintain your weight goals.
www.atkins.com
quoted said:
lessthanhalf
GLP-1 Specialist
For those who are elderly or with chronic illness who are around or near the sarcopenic obesity category before losing weight , it is possible that the muscle loss from GLP's could be clinically significant. And sarcopenia is associated with increased mortality and is a serious issue in the elderly. There is a case for being very careful with GLP's in this group.
For every one else, muscle and other lean tissue loss from weight loss of any cause including GLP's is proportional to fat loss, and in virtually all situations results in substantially improved functional capacity. The muscles are a bit smaller, but not having to move so much mass makes an ever bigger difference to actual real world abilities, like getting up out of chairs or walking up an incline or stairs. And GLP drugs improve muscle quality, reducing intramuscular fat and improving muscle strength to mass ratio by about 6%. So in the real world I am not sure the muscle loss problem is really much of a real problem. If people are far more capable in doing everyday actions or exercising, then does the loss of muscle mass really matter.
As I lost weight I found that each extra 10 kilos I lost made a fairly big difference to my ability to walk up a hill. At 115kg I was puffing and had to stop several times over about a 20-30m vertical incline, and it was seriously hard work. Once I got to 90kg or so I did not need to stop but it was still work, and at 75kg it was not hard at all, despite a pretty major drop in my muscle mass.
The problem with drug therapies to improve muscle mass and function , is that there are still no current therapies that have been proven in clinical trials to improve muscle mass and functional capacity despite a large number of trials of a lot of different drugs over many years, mostly in the context of sarcopenia due to age or cancer. Some do improve muscle mass, which might be helpful in the context of obesity for metabolic reasons , but it would be better if it could be proven it improved muscle quality by showing performance gains.
Exercise obviously works, even in the worst case scenarios of cancer or age or losing weight, and increased protein intake can improve the amount of muscle a bit , and can reduce muscle loss during weight loss.
The only grey drug I know of with actual clinical trial evidence of being used with GLP's is ostarine, at low doses of 3mg it nearly abolished muscle loss with semaglutide induced weight loss. But this is a single small study, as far as I know it is not an approved drug for any purpose anywhere, can cause liver toxicity at higher doses, so it cannot be said for certain it cannot cause this at lower doses, and is only available in 25mg pills that are hard to find, and getting 3mg out of 25mg pills sounds like a bit of a pain. As far as I know it is still in development , so further studies are likely eventually.
The other ones in development are all antibody based aimed at inhibiting myostatin, so even though they sound promising , they are going to be expensive and not available from grey sources as antibody therapies are much harder to manufacture than peptides.
I guess replacement dose TRT is proven to be OK medically in the context of androgen deficiency in males, which is very common in obesity but availability and access is pretty variable. In Aus if you are obese in general the standard medical therapy is to advise weight loss , not replacement.
Which leaves the various different methods in use by the body building community , none of which are approved medical therapies for the purposes of maintaining or improving muscle mass. Which does not mean they do not work, it does mean they are not proven to be safe and there is no scientific evidence that the benefits outweigh the costs in adverse effects, and in many cases the long term adverse effects in humans are simply unknown as there have never been any long term tests and you have to guess what they might be based on animal or cell studies.
The closest to safe I guess would be tesamorelin which has had multiple clinical trials in HIV lipodystrophy, where it reduced visceral fat and did not have adverse effects on lipids or cardiovascular risk. Never tested in any other population, so you cannot say for sure it is safe in other contexts, but at least somewhere in the vicinity of safeish. But not safe enough for Doctors to consider prescribing it for other reasons.
The problem with most of these therapies is that they could easily modify long term cardiovascular ( or other ) risk in an adverse way, and detecting this is hard, requiring long term, large population studies which are expensive and are not going to be done as there is no straightforward business model to justify it, so that using those treatments to improve muscle could end up defeating or reducing the health benefits of GLP's and weight loss. Probably not , but if you have a heart attack or a cancer 10 or 20 years after using then you can never know if they contributed to it or not.
For every one else, muscle and other lean tissue loss from weight loss of any cause including GLP's is proportional to fat loss, and in virtually all situations results in substantially improved functional capacity. The muscles are a bit smaller, but not having to move so much mass makes an ever bigger difference to actual real world abilities, like getting up out of chairs or walking up an incline or stairs. And GLP drugs improve muscle quality, reducing intramuscular fat and improving muscle strength to mass ratio by about 6%. So in the real world I am not sure the muscle loss problem is really much of a real problem. If people are far more capable in doing everyday actions or exercising, then does the loss of muscle mass really matter.
As I lost weight I found that each extra 10 kilos I lost made a fairly big difference to my ability to walk up a hill. At 115kg I was puffing and had to stop several times over about a 20-30m vertical incline, and it was seriously hard work. Once I got to 90kg or so I did not need to stop but it was still work, and at 75kg it was not hard at all, despite a pretty major drop in my muscle mass.
The problem with drug therapies to improve muscle mass and function , is that there are still no current therapies that have been proven in clinical trials to improve muscle mass and functional capacity despite a large number of trials of a lot of different drugs over many years, mostly in the context of sarcopenia due to age or cancer. Some do improve muscle mass, which might be helpful in the context of obesity for metabolic reasons , but it would be better if it could be proven it improved muscle quality by showing performance gains.
Exercise obviously works, even in the worst case scenarios of cancer or age or losing weight, and increased protein intake can improve the amount of muscle a bit , and can reduce muscle loss during weight loss.
The only grey drug I know of with actual clinical trial evidence of being used with GLP's is ostarine, at low doses of 3mg it nearly abolished muscle loss with semaglutide induced weight loss. But this is a single small study, as far as I know it is not an approved drug for any purpose anywhere, can cause liver toxicity at higher doses, so it cannot be said for certain it cannot cause this at lower doses, and is only available in 25mg pills that are hard to find, and getting 3mg out of 25mg pills sounds like a bit of a pain. As far as I know it is still in development , so further studies are likely eventually.
The other ones in development are all antibody based aimed at inhibiting myostatin, so even though they sound promising , they are going to be expensive and not available from grey sources as antibody therapies are much harder to manufacture than peptides.
I guess replacement dose TRT is proven to be OK medically in the context of androgen deficiency in males, which is very common in obesity but availability and access is pretty variable. In Aus if you are obese in general the standard medical therapy is to advise weight loss , not replacement.
Which leaves the various different methods in use by the body building community , none of which are approved medical therapies for the purposes of maintaining or improving muscle mass. Which does not mean they do not work, it does mean they are not proven to be safe and there is no scientific evidence that the benefits outweigh the costs in adverse effects, and in many cases the long term adverse effects in humans are simply unknown as there have never been any long term tests and you have to guess what they might be based on animal or cell studies.
The closest to safe I guess would be tesamorelin which has had multiple clinical trials in HIV lipodystrophy, where it reduced visceral fat and did not have adverse effects on lipids or cardiovascular risk. Never tested in any other population, so you cannot say for sure it is safe in other contexts, but at least somewhere in the vicinity of safeish. But not safe enough for Doctors to consider prescribing it for other reasons.
The problem with most of these therapies is that they could easily modify long term cardiovascular ( or other ) risk in an adverse way, and detecting this is hard, requiring long term, large population studies which are expensive and are not going to be done as there is no straightforward business model to justify it, so that using those treatments to improve muscle could end up defeating or reducing the health benefits of GLP's and weight loss. Probably not , but if you have a heart attack or a cancer 10 or 20 years after using then you can never know if they contributed to it or not.
joseblo
GLP-1 Enthusiast
What's the something for glucagon? You mean add a pep?somejock said:
desinr-gal
GLP-1 Specialist
Every time I make and drink a protein shake I have quasi nausea for hours afterward.Calm Logic said:
Only legumes seem safe as far as protein foods. fish I can only half a portion now.
The protein dilemma is real for me.
Keep in mind I titrated down..Im at 3mg a week total mix of T and R
IronCircuit
GLP-1 Apprentice
tul9033 said:
I still have not seen a study where in a controlled environment of strength training and adequate protein and calorie intake, there has been some sort of significant muscle loss. There has also been talk of bone density loss.
Regardless to that point, the perfect counter to that issue is a low dose of Oxandrolone, as clinically it is used for muscle and bone sparing especially in a low food, minimum protein environment
Calm Logic
GLP-1 Specialist
And the perfect way to get blood-filled cysts on the liver.IronCircuit said:
IronCircuit
GLP-1 Apprentice
From Anavar?Calm Logic said:
Occindemure
GLP-1 Apprentice
So if pea protein works.desinr-gal said:Every time I make and drink a protein shake I have quasi nausea for hours afterward.
Only legumes seem safe as far as protein foods. fish I can only half a portion now.
The protein dilemma is real for me.
Keep in mind I titrated down..Im at 3mg a week total mix of T and R
Huel Black series makes a decent 40g protien mix.
The ready to drinks are at Costco online for a reasonable price too
They are designed as meal replacements, and so far I find them pretty satiating
spanky2026
GLP-1 Enthusiast
Senior Citizen Tirz user here, as my fat loss has gone steadily downward, my muscle gain has gone steadily up. I do strength training just several times a week, alternating heavy days with kettlebell routines. No muscle loss here. The older users I know who are losing muscle mass are doing nothing at all strength-wise. It's not that tough to stay on top of it.
desinr-gal
GLP-1 Specialist
Thanks I'll try thatOccindemure said:
Calm Logic
GLP-1 Specialist
Yes. But no one on Avavar for recreational use (which is basically all Anavar use) does ultrasounds of the liver. So all the bro science is wishful thinking, as usual.IronCircuit said:
IronCircuit
GLP-1 Apprentice
Is this specific to anavar or oral AAS in general?Calm Logic said:
I’ve just finished a Test cycle, some mass loss is expected however with proper PCT this can be mitigated. I’m going onto week 4 of using reta. Shedding fat fast. I do weight training 4/5 times a week with some cardio in between. I also stick to my macros currently on a cutting phase at 1835 calories and 180g protein with 160g carbs.
I haven’t lost any strength and the mass I’ve lost had been mostly water weight. It may be too early to tell yet but so far it all seems good. I won’t take any more gear due to wanting to conceive with my partner don’t want to affect my fertility. However once that deed is done and if I’m not happy with “potential” muscle loss on reta I’m going back on cycle.
I haven’t lost any strength and the mass I’ve lost had been mostly water weight. It may be too early to tell yet but so far it all seems good. I won’t take any more gear due to wanting to conceive with my partner don’t want to affect my fertility. However once that deed is done and if I’m not happy with “potential” muscle loss on reta I’m going back on cycle.
RoadRash
GLP-1 Apprentice
Calling it a downfall is kind of over the top.tul9033 said:
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