Ketamine for Anhedonia?

[DragonOfTheSea]

With the growing re-popularization of Ketamine treatments for depression, and the large number of people struggling with Anhedonia from (among others) GLP-1’s- might there be a space where K might be a viable solution?

Thoughts?

 

[RJ760]

With the growing re-popularization of Ketamine treatments for depression, and the large number of people struggling with Anhedonia from (among others) GLP-1’s- might there be a space where K might be a viable solution?

Thoughts?

Interesting angle. I get the logic but I’d probably want to exhaust simpler options first before going that route. Seems like a lot to add into the mix.

 

[FlowerFairy]

I was placed on ketamine before I started Tirz. I didn’t notice significant difference. I stopped it and my therapist suggested the nasal form, but they never started the process to get it approved.

 

[Calm Logic]

PT-141 lol

But besides low-dose, temporary use of MT-2, PT-141, and the like for the more primitive part of the brain (hypothalamus), there are more targeted peptides for mood, cognition, etc. Like Selank, Semax, and PT-22-28. Or that's the theory anyway.

For an energy boost, there are various peptides like SS-31 and also stimulants like caffeine.

On the traditional medication side, Wellbutrin\buproprion is good for some since it can also help in a minor way with weight loss or at least energy as a stimulating anti-depressant (with low incidence of sexual side effects, about the same as placebo). On the hormonal side, there is TRT/HRT for a boost.

 

[lessthanhalf]

Ketamine is regarded as a fairly effective treatment for severe treatment resistant depression. I do not think it is likely to be considered as an option for anhedonia, unless that was just a symptom of the above problem. A bit like using a brick to swat a fly. It is usually only used when multiple trials of different antidepressants and augmentation strategies have been tried and not worked.

Though there are a few studies investigating lower oral doses of ketamine, it is not close to being used in practice as far as I know, and ketamine therapy requires professional supervision in a clinic or hospital with resuscitation equipment. Which tends to make it expensive and unavailable in most places.

DIY is not a very safe option, apart from the high addiction risk , there are some unpleasant adverse effects, and risks of anaesthetic drugs being used unsupervised.

As mentioned above buproprion would be a more reasonable choice.

 

[DragonOfTheSea]

I appreciate the input so far, and the specific alternative suggestions.

I understand and agree that full-blown Ketamine treatment is like “using a brick to swat a fly”- I didn’t clarify but I was more thinking more toward the line of micro-dosing and/or oral approaches that are currently trending.

 

[DragonOfTheSea]

I was placed on ketamine before I started Tirz. I didn’t notice significant difference. I stopped it and my therapist suggested the nasal form, but they never started the process to get it approved.

Was the treatment you were previously on professionally administered or was it a lower dose self administered protocol?

 

[Calm Logic]

The hardcore ketamine infusions can be strong enough that (one theory is) they work by a positive form of depersonalization (as with anesthesia). I would not say my family member has drastically changed for the better on the ketamine injections, though they do seem to help, especially the first few months when one is typically starting at a low point anyway. And they certainly are no joke, since you need a ride home.

Based on the depersonalization theory and what I have seen, my guess is that watered-down ketamine (like sublingual) would not be very effective, like no better than marijuana gummies.

 

[randompersonrandom]

The hardcore ketamine injections can be strong enough that (one theory is) they work by a positive form of depersonalization (as with anesthesia). I would not say my family member has drastically changed for the better on the ketamine injections, though they do seem to help, especially the first few months when one is typically starting at a low point anyway. And they certainly are no joke, since you need a ride home.

Based on the depersonalization theory and what I have seen, my guess is that watered-down ketamine (like sublingual) would not be very effective, like no better than marijuana gummies.

I'm a believer when it comes to ketamine potentially making a big change. I got a close girlfriend with scary might-hurt-herself depression that she's done everything fully and by the book to treat; she's fantastically fit from exercise, pushes herself into lots of social activities, killing it at her job, married to the best dude I know, has had all the therapy and all the drugs and was STILL having "he took her to the ER because there was some significant risk of her getting on the bus for whatever's after this" type crises. She's been a LOT better on the ketamine.

I know so little about it other than watching it arguably save her life, though. I'm so glad it's not me. I've had nasty depression in my life before, but it was ALWAYS situational, and could be easily cured by "dumping that motherfucker and healing from whatever he did to me."

 

[Calm Logic]

Ketamine infusions seem like a lot of things in mental health (different strokes for different folks), except they excel for more acute/crisis situations like you mention. And they do offer simultaneous talk therapy with the ketamine infusions, to help nail down long-term effects.

Some of the ways ketamine may work cognitively are good to target anyway, one way or another (as with mindfulness or gummies to depersonalize/derealize):

Ketamine’s acute effects on negative brain states are mediated through distinct altered states of consciousness in humans - PMC

Ketamine commonly and rapidly induces dissociative and other altered states of consciousness (ASCs) in humans. However, the neural mechanisms that contribute to these experiences remain unknown. We used functional neuroimaging to engage key regions ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Depersonalization and derealization involve disconnection from one’s body and surroundings. The ketamine-induced sensation of disconnecting from one’s physical body may also be accompanied by detachment from negative affective and pain states, including emotional pain and depressive feelings.

In participants with depression, researchers have observed that a standard therapeutic ketamine infusion (0.5 mg/kg infused over 40 min) brings significant relief from overall depression, anhedonia, and suicidal ideation during the same time frame within which dissociation occurs, which is as early as 5 min into the infusion with resolution typically within 1 h. These observations of acute relief from overall depression and anhedonia can last from days to weeks.

https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/148/10/3496/8178381

Preclinical studies suggest that ketamine rapidly influences the lateral habenula (involved in punishment processing) and fronto-striatal (reward) systems, reverses negative affective biases in established memories, and promotes long-term stress resilience.

Click to expand...

For me, after years of therapy and meds, exercise and sunshine works better than any traditional therapy. Hands down, with exercise and reading as my favorite forms of meditation. The few drug rehab places that are exercise-based make sense to me. And psychiatrists push exercise even more now, as with the "baby steps" of behavioral activation. Brain fog from GLPs like tirz also benefits from carbs and moving around.

 

[DragonOfTheSea]

The hardcore ketamine infusions can be strong enough that (one theory is) they work by a positive form of depersonalization (as with anesthesia). I would not say my family member has drastically changed for the better on the ketamine injections, though they do seem to help, especially the first few months when one is typically starting at a low point anyway. And they certainly are no joke, since you need a ride home.

Based on the depersonalization theory and what I have seen, my guess is that watered-down ketamine (like sublingual) would not be very effective, like no better than marijuana gummies.

Fair point.

 

[FRMN01]

I would suggest researching Selank and Bromantane

 

[RoadRash]

With the growing re-popularization of Ketamine treatments for depression, and the large number of people struggling with Anhedonia from (among others) GLP-1’s- might there be a space where K might be a viable solution?

Thoughts?

For many years I suffered from chronic depression and underwent ketamine therapy., and found it to be extremely helpful. I think it's a very viable therapy for depression and if your use of GLP1 makes you feel depressed while on GLP1, I'd definitely talk to your primary physician about ketamine sessions.

 

[DragonOfTheSea]

I would suggest researching Selank and Bromantane

Absolutely, all over it!

The selank/semax space is very intriguing for myself, seemingly a game changer for my anxiety/adhd tended mind! I’ve been digging into this for a bit and I see making some nasal sprays in my near future.

The Anhedonia bit is more a concern I have for my wife, trying to learn and explore as much as I can.

 

[Gt3294a]

PT-141 lol

But besides low-dose, temporary use of MT-2, PT-141, and the like for the more primitive part of the brain (hypothalamus), there are more targeted peptides for mood, cognition, etc. Like Selank, Semax, and PT-22-28. Or that's the theory anyway.

For an energy boost, there are various peptides like SS-31 and also stimulants like caffeine.

On the traditional medication side, Wellbutrin\buproprion is good for some since it can also help in a minor way with weight loss or at least energy as a stimulating anti-depressant (with low incidence of sexual side effects, about the same as placebo). On the hormonal side, there is TRT/HRT for a boost.

This was a good post. Wellbutrin - did that like 20 years ago actually. K - that too…. Calm, you going to get me experimenting with the new stuff. But seriously, will be interesting if the k hole finds a place today.

 

[FlowerFairy]

Was the treatment you were previously on professionally administered or was it a lower dose self administered protocol?

Professional. It was through Joyous.