Igf -1 level (score ) before and after

[CNCCurrency]

Clearly it’s normal and common knowledge that you need 4iu of HGH to match 1mg of Tesa. Also that curiosity means I’m focused on you “saving so much money” ($1/day).

 

[Habibibi]

Clearly it’s normal and common knowledge that you need 4iu of HGH to match 1mg of Tesa. Also that curiosity means I’m focused on you “saving so much money” ($1/day).

Looking forward to the bro science chart that shows this

 

[woundcarping]

This all started with me being curious how you were saving money with Tesa vs HGH. I'm curious because I have no experience and am learning about IGF-1 and its manipulation.

Clearly it’s normal and common knowledge that you need...

...curiosity means I’m focused on you “saving so much money” ($1/day).

Looking forward to the bro science chart that shows this

If I want to keep z-score > +2, then 20mg Tesa will last me 20 days... because I need at least 4ius to get my z-score that high on exogenous gh.

...Saving so much money using Tesa over hgh.

YOU said YOU need 1mg of Tesa or 4iu of HGH to "keep a z-score >+2" and Tesa saves you "so much money" over HGH.

So if someone truly needs 4 IU HGH to equal the IGF-1 z-score produced by 1 mg tesamorelin, possibilities include:

underdosed/weak HGH

bad reconstitution/storage

timing differences in labs

obesity/insulin resistance blunting IGF-1 conversion

unusually strong response to tesamorelin

unusually weak hepatic response to HGH

comparing trough vs peak conditions

I'm seeing around $1/mg on Tesa and $.50/iu on HGH.

1mg Tesa= $1

4iu HGH= $2

Thus you're saving $1/day. I'm impressed that's meaningful savings for you.

 

[CNCCurrency]

This all started with me being curious how you were saving money with Tesa vs HGH. I'm curious because I have no experience and am learning about IGF-1 and its manipulation.

View attachment 24773

YOU said YOU need 1mg of Tesa or 4iu of HGH to "keep a z-score >+2" and Tesa saves you "so much money" over HGH.

1mg Tesa= $1

4iu HGH= $2

Thus you're saving $1/day. I'm impressed that's meaningful savings for you.

 

[Habibibi]

This all started with me being curious how you were saving money with Tesa vs HGH. I'm curious because I have no experience and am learning about IGF-1 and its manipulation.

View attachment 24773

YOU said YOU need 1mg of Tesa or 4iu of HGH to "keep a z-score >+2" and Tesa saves you "so much money" over HGH.

1mg Tesa= $1

4iu HGH= $2

Thus you're saving $1/day. I'm impressed that's meaningful savings for you.

In this economy, saving 50% is a big deal to me. I'd rather pay 365/year instead of 730/year for my supply.

 

[wildweasel]

Not going to reply to anyone specific here

First, claiming that a secretagogue is going to increase IGF-1 levels more than HGH itself is absolute non-sense, whos supposed to believe that.

Second, Z-Score it not a useful metric to track in this discussion. Z score is age-adjustd standard deviations above or below mean. It's a lot tougher to boost 0 -> 1 than it is 1 -> 2.

You want to follow IGF-1 Levels compared to your personal baseline, thats the useful metric to follow, not Z-score, thats only useful for tracking how prone someone may be to developing acromegaly or some other GH-related disease when compared to the general population.

Tesa was found to increase IGF-1 levels vs placebo by 50% at 1mg and 65% at 2mg: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16052083/

Another Tesa trial examined only 2mg daily dosing and concluded that it increased IGF-1 levels by 85% https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa072375

This study on HGH concluded that 2iu led to 70-100% increase in IGF1 levels, and 4iu led to 150-200% inrease in IGF-1 levels: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3288652/

Tesa 1mg -- +50% IGF-1

Tesa 2mg -- +65%-80% IGF-1

HGH 2iu -- +70%-100% IGF-1

HGH 4iu -- +150%-200% IGF-1

If we assume that 1mg tesa = 2iu hgh in cost, its clear that hgh provides the more cost-effective means of improving IGF-1

 

[hodlplus]

Baseline/zscore: 188/.7

10 weeks of HGH 2iu daily

Baseline/zcore: 294/1.8

did you start at 2iu immediately and keep dose static? i just got back igf-1 pre hgh, sitting at 201 and z score of .8. I am starting an extremely conservative titration of .5 iu daily since it is my first time working with gh or secretagogues, but given that i have excellent insulin sensitivity as a result of my tirzepatide use, i am wondering if it would make more sense to titrate more quickly. i am also monitoring with a CGM, although i just started so dont even have a meaningful baseline yet (fasting insuling is 5.4 though)

 

[sfkid]

did you start at 2iu immediately and keep dose static? i just got back igf-1 pre hgh, sitting at 201 and z score of .8. I am starting an extremely conservative titration of .5 iu daily since it is my first time working with gh or secretagogues, but given that i have excellent insulin sensitivity as a result of my tirzepatide use, i am wondering if it would make more sense to titrate more quickly. i am also monitoring with a CGM, although i just started so dont even have a meaningful baseline yet (fasting insuling is 5.4 though)

Started at 2 and stayed at. You won't see much increase in insulin at 2iu...

 

[Smiter]

Not going to reply to anyone specific here

First, claiming that a secretagogue is going to increase IGF-1 levels more than HGH itself is absolute non-sense, whos supposed to believe that.

Second, Z-Score it not a useful metric to track in this discussion. Z score is age-adjustd standard deviations above or below mean. It's a lot tougher to boost 0 -> 1 than it is 1 -> 2.

You want to follow IGF-1 Levels compared to your personal baseline, thats the useful metric to follow, not Z-score, thats only useful for tracking how prone someone may be to developing acromegaly or some other GH-related disease when compared to the general population.

Tesa was found to increase IGF-1 levels vs placebo by 50% at 1mg and 65% at 2mg: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16052083/

Another Tesa trial examined only 2mg daily dosing and concluded that it increased IGF-1 levels by 85% https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa072375

This study on HGH concluded that 2iu led to 70-100% increase in IGF1 levels, and 4iu led to 150-200% inrease in IGF-1 levels: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3288652/

Tesa 1mg -- +50% IGF-1

Tesa 2mg -- +65%-80% IGF-1

HGH 2iu -- +70%-100% IGF-1

HGH 4iu -- +150%-200% IGF-1

If we assume that 1mg tesa = 2iu hgh in cost, its clear that hgh provides the more cost-effective means of improving IGF-1

Jesus Christ, man. I didnt know you were a Michelin rated Master Chef. That's some cooking.

Just one question though, even if somatomedin is my favorite hormone, why would someone want to increase it systemically, when there are other viable options out there now? It's the main reason I am so anti-GH. I am really sensitive to it as well. That z-score thing is a concern. Thousands of biohackers have had fluid retention, joint pain, and other issues due to GH-mediated systemic IGF increase, especially without the gear to increase receptor action.. I still remember Sly's Aussie GH scandal during Rambo 4 production. He was so bloated.

 

[Habibibi]

Not going to reply to anyone specific here

First, claiming that a secretagogue is going to increase IGF-1 levels more than HGH itself is absolute non-sense, whos supposed to believe that.

Second, Z-Score it not a useful metric to track in this discussion. Z score is age-adjustd standard deviations above or below mean. It's a lot tougher to boost 0 -> 1 than it is 1 -> 2.

You want to follow IGF-1 Levels compared to your personal baseline, thats the useful metric to follow, not Z-score, thats only useful for tracking how prone someone may be to developing acromegaly or some other GH-related disease when compared to the general population.

Tesa was found to increase IGF-1 levels vs placebo by 50% at 1mg and 65% at 2mg: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16052083/

Another Tesa trial examined only 2mg daily dosing and concluded that it increased IGF-1 levels by 85% https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa072375

This study on HGH concluded that 2iu led to 70-100% increase in IGF1 levels, and 4iu led to 150-200% inrease in IGF-1 levels: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3288652/

Tesa 1mg -- +50% IGF-1

Tesa 2mg -- +65%-80% IGF-1

HGH 2iu -- +70%-100% IGF-1

HGH 4iu -- +150%-200% IGF-1

If we assume that 1mg tesa = 2iu hgh in cost, its clear that hgh provides the more cost-effective means of improving IGF-1

I've tried both hgh and tesamorelin, which is how I was able to compare them for my needs of boosting igf-1 z-score to around +2. You speak in population statistics, which is useless to my n=1 case, and will be useless for others too.

These igf1 increase levels for hgh are AVERAGE numbers, you need to confirm they work for you. Good starting point, but not everyone will have 100% increase on 2iu hgh. Patient population also matters, as the tesamorelin study included only hiv patients, whose igf1 is low compared to healthy population.

 

[wildweasel]

I've tried both hgh and tesamorelin, which is how I was able to compare them for my needs of boosting igf-1 z-score to around +2. You speak in population statistics, which is useless to my n=1 case, and will be useless for others too.

These igf1 increase levels for hgh are AVERAGE numbers, you need to confirm they work for you. Good starting point, but not everyone will have 100% increase on 2iu hgh. Patient population also matters, as the tesamorelin study included only hiv patients, whose igf1 is low compared to healthy population.

You are absolutely correct that everyone is different and if someone really wants to know how they react to something they need to get their own blood work done

If anybody wants to gauge how they will react to something they should prefer population statistics instead of an anecdote from someone who doesn’t represent the general population

 

[wildweasel]

Jesus Christ, man. I didnt know you were a Michelin rated Master Chef. That's some cooking.

Just one question though, even if somatomedin is my favorite hormone, why would someone want to increase it systemically, when there are other viable options out there now? It's the main reason I am so anti-GH. I am really sensitive to it as well. That z-score thing is a concern. Thousands of biohackers have had fluid retention, joint pain, and other issues due to GH-mediated systemic IGF increase, especially without the gear to increase receptor action.. I still remember Sly's Aussie GH scandal during Rambo 4 production. He was so bloated.

most people chase it for fat mobilization, recovery, and hyperplasia.

Fasted gh pulses cause the body to mobilize fat making it easier to get rid of. Strong gh throughout the night aids in recovering from muscular stress such as training/exercise, and it also helps with signaling to grow new cells, especially around collagen, ligament, and muscle fibers

 

[hodlplus]

Started at 2 and stayed at. You won't see much increase in insulin at 2iu...

copy that good to know, will likely be jumping to 1iu, monitoring for a bit then quickly moving to 2.

 

[Smiter]

hyperplasia

My favorite. Superior to hypertrophy. But I was under the impression that somatomedin through its activation of MGF was the primary driver of this. Is it not so?

 

[wildweasel]

My favorite. Superior to hypertrophy. But I was under the impression that somatomedin through its activation of MGF was the primary driver of this. Is it not so?

You’re not wrong, mgf plays a role in hyperplasia, and personally, I’m not even convinced that gh plays a huge role in it, but it is what the mass monsters of the 80s believed and what many body builders still use gh to chase

 

[Smiter]

You’re not wrong, mgf plays a role in hyperplasia, and personally, I’m not even convinced that gh plays a huge role in it, but it is what the mass monsters of the 80s believed and what many body builders still use gh to chase

Ah, the days before the discovery of MGF.. Yeah, my understanding is that hyperplasia occurs at the end of the muscle fibers first where the influx of satellite cells cause division and new neural connections at the junction. This is the most common theory though it is not confirmed yet. All they know for certain is that while lab studies did not find hyperplasia in humans, they did find hyperplasia in strength-trained, experienced athletes. I looked for patterns in those who had it. That's how I learned about Charles Poliquin. His training principles seemed to indicate the presence of hyperplasia. I am not certain but time under tension, overcoming isometrics, and slow eccentric stretches at the end of a muscle's movement seems to drive it the most.

P.S:- Try the Poliquin biceps curl...It's an annihilator, trust me.

 

[wildweasel]

Ah, the days before the discovery of MGF.. Yeah, my understanding is that hyperplasia occurs at the end of the muscle fibers first where the influx of satellite cells cause division and new neural connections at the junction. This is the most common theory though it is not confirmed yet. All they know for certain is that while lab studies did not find hyperplasia in humans, they did find hyperplasia in strength-trained, experienced athletes. I looked for patterns in those who had it. That's how I learned about Charles Poliquin. His training principles seemed to indicate the presence of hyperplasia. I am not certain but time under tension, overcoming isometrics, and slow eccentric stretches at the end of a muscle's movement seems to drive it the most.

P.S:- Try the Poliquin biceps curl...It's an annihilator, trust me.

Nice I’m going to give the Poliquin biceps curl a shot tomorrow it looks killer thanks for sharing

 

[Smiter]

Nice I’m going to give the Poliquin biceps curl a shot tomorrow it looks killer thanks for sharing

Poliquin curls, Zottman curls, and my own patented Androck curls...thats my biceps routine. If I can lift my arm the next day, I have failed...lol

 

[GLiPtest]

Not going to reply to anyone specific here

First, claiming that a secretagogue is going to increase IGF-1 levels more than HGH itself is absolute non-sense, whos supposed to believe that.

Second, Z-Score it not a useful metric to track in this discussion. Z score is age-adjustd standard deviations above or below mean. It's a lot tougher to boost 0 -> 1 than it is 1 -> 2.

You want to follow IGF-1 Levels compared to your personal baseline, thats the useful metric to follow, not Z-score, thats only useful for tracking how prone someone may be to developing acromegaly or some other GH-related disease when compared to the general population.

Tesa was found to increase IGF-1 levels vs placebo by 50% at 1mg and 65% at 2mg: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16052083/

Another Tesa trial examined only 2mg daily dosing and concluded that it increased IGF-1 levels by 85% https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa072375

This study on HGH concluded that 2iu led to 70-100% increase in IGF1 levels, and 4iu led to 150-200% inrease in IGF-1 levels: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3288652/

Tesa 1mg -- +50% IGF-1

Tesa 2mg -- +65%-80% IGF-1

HGH 2iu -- +70%-100% IGF-1

HGH 4iu -- +150%-200% IGF-1

If we assume that 1mg tesa = 2iu hgh in cost, its clear that hgh provides the more cost-effective means of improving IGF-1

Wrong.

rHGH doesn’t “amplify” endogenous GH production, it replaces it. The IGF-1 response doesn’t increase by some percentage of the starting point the way Tesa does.

In other words, depending on GH sensitivity, rHGH will increase IGF by x points, while Tesa will increase existing IGF by x percent.

It is entirely possible for 2iu of Tesa to increase IGF by far more than 2iu of rHGH.

Then there’s the loss of GH receptor sensitivity from continuous exposure to GH when using rHGH, while Tesa maintains natural GH pulsatile release, which is why at equivalent IGF levels, Tesa results in more visceral fat lipolysis than rHGH.

It’s common for peak body composition improvements on rHGH to reverse moderately after long term use. Plenty of studies demonstrate this effect.

The only thing rHGH can do that Tesa can’t is push you far into supraphysiologic ranges, by using a high dose, along with all the joys of, over the long term, becoming as “handsome” as all the wide nosed, thick lipped, scrotum scalped, protruding lower jawed, enlarged tongue lisping, struggling to breath, permanent sleep apnea suffering bodybuilders walking around with undiagnosed acromegally,

 

[Steve_Burns]

This is a great thread. Curious to hear folks opinion on this.

If one has natural IGF-1 levels at 257, would taking Tesa or HGH provide any benefit?

43year old male.