GLP-1s 'cheating' OR a TOOL

[PackmanJohnny]

Every medicine we have is introducing a foreign substance to optimize the body's performance. Heck, if you think about food and water is doing that too.

Fact is that some people are just shitty human beings and will judge you about something no matter what you do.

This is true! Karen's and Kenneth's who deem themselves some kind of moral arbiter will judge you for being fat just as intensely as they would for 'being vain' and lifting weights or for 'taking drugs' LOL.

trying to please people inconsequential to your life and journey will do nothing but wear you out. I might not boil it down to being the same as water haha, but precisely - when properly educated/informed (or with a Dr if youre lucky) - using supplements to improve your life is virtually indifferent from medication or procedures that prolong/enhance your life.

I forget where I heard it - Hemlock is a naturally occurring substance, and appendectomies are not - one seems a lot better for humans than the other!

 

[Not_Your_Dad]

This is true! Karen's and Kenneth's who deem themselves some kind of moral arbiter will judge you for being fat just as intensely as they would for 'being vain' and lifting weights or for 'taking drugs' LOL.

trying to please people inconsequential to your life and journey will do nothing but wear you out. I might not boil it down to being the same as water haha, but precisely - when properly educated/informed (or with a Dr if youre lucky) - using supplements to improve your life is virtually indifferent from medication or procedures that prolong/enhance your life.

I forget where I heard it - Hemlock is a naturally occurring substance, and appendectomies are not - one seems a lot better for humans than the other!

I'd trust that anyone who feels the need to judge doesn't wear glasses or contacts, and damn sure better not be taking any blood pressure meds, ED meds, insulin. On the unusual instance when I decide to argue with someone talking shit about GLPs saying this usually shuts them right the fuck up

 

[cheaperseeker]

Exactly, and if this is cheating, then so is flying to NYC instead of driving. (metaphor by my doctor)

Or driving instead of taking your horse and wagon. Or taking your horse and wagon instead of walking.

Excellent metaphor. I will be using it.

 

[YoYoFat]

When someone asks I always tell them the easiest way to lose 10lbs is really really simple. Just track all the things you consume. Don't even have to try to eat less, the sheer act of connecting the calorie amount to the things you put in your body will make you eat less.

This is the most asinine thing I’ve read on GLP -1 Forum in a long time, and I’ve read some wild commentary.

 

[Calm Logic]

No, it works. The problem is for how long are you willing to do all that and other issues with traditional dieting, which really are best for only having to lose 10 pounds.

 

[YoYoFat]

probably my least popular take here is the fact that I do lump GLP's in with other peptides, RCs and ultimately gear - from the perspective of harm reduction/education of risk. (obviously the degree is different, Im totally comfortable saying that Tirz is safer than Winstrol or Halo LOL) Either way youre using a foreign substance to optimize your body's performance to achieve a more desirable outcome than it would on its own. But I also dont ascribe a morality level to any of it that would make one good or bad.

Actually, no. This is the most asinine thing I’ve read.

You don’t believe in medicine? Do you not use a foreign substance to address various conditions and disease states that, if left to run their course on their own, would kill you?

 

[YoYoFat]

No, it works. The problem is for how long are you willing to do all that and other issues with traditional dieting.

It doesn’t work for most, hence why we are here.

I could eat the same amount of calories pre-Tirz and gain weight. Those same calories on Tirz, I lose or maintain. These meds do a lot more than just regulate CICO.

 

[Calm Logic]

It works for losing 10 pounds, which is what the person was talking about.

All diets work (generally speaking), the question is for how long. (Some/much of the initial weight loss from GLPs is similar to previous dieting efforts. The biggest difference is the weight doesn't come back because the "GLP deficiency" has been treated/managed.)

 

[YoYoFat]

It works for losing 10 pounds, which is what the person was talking about.

All diets work, the question is for how long. (Some/much of the initial weight loss from GLPs is similar to previous dieting efforts. The biggest difference is the weight doesn't come back because the "GLP deficiency" has been treated/managed.)

No, all diets don’t work.

And no, that’s not what he’s saying. He said, “the sheer act of connecting the calorie amount to the things you put in your body will make you eat less .”

Hahaha! As if! As if just keeping a diary to count calories will make you eat less. Good lord that is an ignorant thing to say. Why didn’t he just say “use your willpower, it’s that simple”? Because that’s what he’s saying.

You’re justifying the opinion of someone who considers GLP-1s to be cheating and on par with PEDs. Just say that. Say you agree with him.

 

[Calm Logic]

I'm talking about 10 pounds. You are talking about something else.

Then there are other issues like the physical and emotional impact of YOYO dieting. So even the benefits of temporary weight loss are questioned.

Even the critics of the Atkins diet (such as vegans and the late Dr. John McDougall) will say it works for weight loss (generally speaking). The problem is, again, for how long, and at what cost ("being thin for your casket").

And I've always been critical of CICO:

So CICO is very helpful in the long-term for most people with a BMI over 30. I don't think so.

You seem to be saying -- well, since we have the GLPs -- we can be even more restrictive with intake. But metabolism can also go down. Energy levels can crash. Good luck with all that. Yes, it can help with a stall, but it's not a long-term solution.

To reiterate: CICO is a mechanism of weight loss, but it's not enough on its own for a long-term strategy for most people. CICO partly or mostly explains why we lose weight with GLPs, but that doesn't mean we can just pretend the GLPs aren't the magic in the bottle. Take away the GLP, and what do you have? Wishful, simplistic, short-term thinking about CICO. That's it.

Similarly, with weight loss from a strict vegan diet, you can explain it in terms of CICO. But the magic may be volumetrics or whatever, just as a keto diet may have the magic of satiating protein. And even then, most people won't stick with a vegan or keto diet, or any diet that ultimately restricts calories, week after week, year after year. Unless it doesn't feel restrictive because of GLPs or some hormonal restoration from having lost a lot of weight already.

 

[nevets]

I think we live in a society where everything is processed and appeals to our dopamine reward system when we eat food. It's why I was a binge eater, because I would feel happy while eating (followed by shitty feeling afterwards...). I think GLP medications play a huge role in regulating dopaminergic behavior and they are an equalizer in a society where the availability and engineering of food is essentially wired to get us fat.

Unfortunately there is such a stigma with anything medical, whether it's mental health, weight loss, dieting, etc. It is a tool to get us healthier, and it seems to have other positive health effects as well (Lilly is doing a trial on a similar med for alcohol use disorder)

 

[Calm Logic]

It seems there are just as many theories for GLPs as for traditional dieting. Another theory is that GI distress/slowing is negative reinforcement. I'm sure there are various factors at play, depending on the person (and their environment and their biology).

 

[noggin]

GLP1s arent "cheating" they are a tool like a cast for a broken bone, or an SSRI for anxiety. They are instrumentally rational: Weight loss is one of the most profound health interventions, we should aggressivley encourage it.

Here's the cynics take: They are outsourcing willpower. Even if true we should still use GLP1s. Modern neuroscience: willpower = finite. PFC glucose and neural excitation limits set a cap per day. Let's save it for our career, family and not spend it battling snacks.

The deeper truth is clinicals show brain rewiring not some transient fullness. GLP1s hit VTA and decrease dopamine bursts for rewards, this extends beyond food to alcohol, nicotine, other drugs. Early studies show this change persists at least months after GLP1s stopped showing long term plasticity not simple suppression.

Finally, the step trials show very promising weight loss retention (>50% at 24 months). This doesn't fit for a short term cheat.

Losing weight is one of the best ways to avoid chronic disease. If you had a pill to protect your vision everyone would take it, so why not this?

Very insightful information! I found what you said about willpower interesting and decided deeper into it. And while I think your main point holds, the neuroscience behind the idea you mentioned is a little outdated. The idea behind willpower you mentioned is called the "ego depletion model" popularized by Roy Baumeister in the late 1990s. The theory proposed that:

Self-control uses a limited resource that gets depleted with use

The prefrontal cortex consumes glucose during willpower exertion

Once depleted subsequent self-control suffers

This seems great in theory but there have been some issues replicating these findings. A major 2016 replication study with over 2,000 participants found essentially no ego depletion effect. Many other replication attempts have similarly failed to find the effect. Additionally based on what modern science knows about the brain, it uses relatively stable glucose levels which doesn't align with this theory.

The current scientific understanding is that willpower is made of complex inter-connectivity and is more of a cost-benefit analysis than your brain literally running out of energy to exert willpower. Additionally research shows that people who believe willpower is a finite resource show more willpower depletion effect in opposition to those who believe its infinite.

Again, I don't think this detracts from your point at large. I just thought this was very interesting.

 

[noggin]

Yeah it is CICO but I think the big "lie" is the sheer amount of work per double cheeseburger is mindblowing. I just feel like people in general have zero idea how much cardio or strength training or anything is equivalent to a calorie. Their entire gym session that they feel good about wiped out by 2 mountain dews.

When someone asks I always tell them the easiest way to lose 10lbs is really really simple. Just track all the things you consume. Don't even have to try to eat less, the sheer act of connecting the calorie amount to the things you put in your body will make you eat less. They look at me like I have a 2nd head. Then start talking about 10k steps......

So true!!! I literally just counted my calories, not even limited just counted and lost 15 pounds. Unfortunately my body would let me lose no longer since that'd be too far outside my natural weight zone without putting in equivalent extra effort.

 

[yrrdead]

I'm talking about 10 pounds. You are talking about something else.

Then there are other issues like the physical and emotional impact of YOYO dieting. So even the benefits of temporary weight loss are questioned.

Even the critics of the Atkins diet (such as vegans and the late Dr. John McDougall) will say it works for weight loss (generally speaking). The problem is, again, for how long, and at what cost ("being thin for your casket").

And I've always been critical of CICO:

Thanks for getting what I was saying. I'm not nor was I saying GLP's are cheating. I'm sorry if that was unclear. I'm literally on this forum, taking Reta. I was trying to point out that the exercise to lose weight mantra is nonsensical. When people now ask how I've been losing weight my response is simple "Drugs".

 

[PackmanJohnny]

Actually, no. This is the most asinine thing I’ve read.

You don’t believe in medicine? Do you not use a foreign substance to address various conditions and disease states that, if left to run their course on their own, would kill you?

Huh?

dude pretty much all of this stuff is either a medication itself or a supplement that replaces/prevents the need for medication. Of course I believe in medicine. LOL

 

[PackmanJohnny]

Thanks for getting what I was saying. I'm not nor was I saying GLP's are cheating. I'm sorry if that was unclear. I'm literally on this forum, taking Reta. I was trying to point out that the exercise to lose weight mantra is nonsensical. When people now ask how I've been losing weight my response is simple "Drugs".

Theres also a massive difference between the already relatively lean person that wants to drop the 10lb they put on over the holidays vs people with metabolic issues, or other complications that make weight loss difficult/borderline impossible.

one can believe in the science of CICO as a construct but also understand that there are caveats that make the 'CO' part not equal for everyone and some people need to take advantage of modern science to achieve optimal health.