Dose: Side Effects vs Results

[Rafagus]

Context:

Weight loss being the goal

Leaving out the important variable dosage rate of change.

Assuming any dose up to 15mg/week is available.

Review of SURPASS-5 clinical trial on NIH site mentions the dose dependent success of tz. 40 weeks with 5mg/week producing 5.4kg weight loss vs 15mg/week produced a 10.4kg weight loss. With this in mind should the dose be the highest one you can take where side effects are manageable? If the answer is yes, would you creep up to not manageable and back down?

Your thoughts please

 

[nonyabizznez]

Do you have a firm date for a Next Top Model audition, boxing match or military weigh-in?

If not I'd weigh the merits of slower versus rapid weightloss. What would be the result of the low dose study group at 60wks or 70wks? Will a 2 or 3 month delay to goal as a result a lower dose make a difference in your big picture? The upside of low and slow is getting to goal cheaper (gray) potentially maintaining on a lower dose (gray and cheaper), and maybe having tighter skin and a fuller head of hair while having experienced less severe side effects.

There's arguably a different mindset being in a study group (free meds). Seems people who are paying out of pocket and found their way to this forum have results meeting or exceeding the best results in studies.

Good luck and welcome to the forum!

 

[Rafagus]

You make a good point about study groups. Thanks!

 

[nonyabizznez]

You make a good point about study groups. Thanks!

Sorry I had to edit, OCD

 

[penewbie]

Do you have a firm date for a Next Top Model audition, boxing match or military weigh-in?

If not I'd weigh the merits of slower versus rapid weightloss. What would be the result of the low dose study group at 60wks or 70wks? Will a 2 or 3 month delay to goal as a result a lower dose make a difference in your big picture? The upside of low and slow is getting to goal cheaper (gray) potentially maintaining on a lower dose (gray and cheaper), and maybe having tighter skin and a fuller head of hair while having experienced less severe side effects.

There's arguably a different mindset being in a study group (free meds). Seems people who are paying out of pocket and found their way to this forum have results meeting or exceeding the best results in studies.

Good luck and welcome to the forum!

The low dose plateaued at around the same time as the highest dose. With far less weight loss.

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[GimmeABreak]

The low dose plateaued at around the same time as the highest dose. With far less weight loss.

View attachment 4829

The chart seems to indicate that you pretty much lose all that your going to lose in the first 60-72wks. What this chart doesn't tell you is how much people lose that titrate from 2.5-15mg over 48 or 60 weeks. Do they continue to lose beyond 60 weeks or would they still plateau? I think in this chart they did titrate the 10/15mg people up over the first several weeks.

 

[chmuse]

I'm intentionally going slow. I don't want to risk my gallbladder or pancreas, and I want the medication to work as long as possible. Supposedly your body also gets used to it, so you can just keep slowly going up until you hit the max dose.

 

[GimmeABreak]

I'm intentionally going slow. I don't want to risk my gallbladder or pancreas, and I want the medication to work as long as possible. Supposedly your body also gets used to it, so you can just keep slowly going up until you hit the max dose.

I'm doing the same to a point. I am not going to sit around in a two month stall, if no lose or change for 2-3 weeks, I'm movin on up. I am close to goal tho, if I still had 100lbs to lose I would probably titrate differently.

 

[rkl123]

The chart seems to indicate that you pretty much lose all that your going to lose in the first 60-72wks. What this chart doesn't tell you is how much people lose that titrate from 2.5-15mg over 48 or 60 weeks. Do they continue to lose beyond 60 weeks or would they still plateau? I think in this chart they did titrate the 10/15mg people up over the first several weeks.

It also indicates that going up to 10 is valuable while 10 to 15 is not worth it for most (most should just chill at 10)

 

[Valerie]

It also indicates that going up to 10 is valuable while 10 to 15 is not worth it for most (most should just chill at 10)

Over 10 was my sweet spot.

 

[GimmeABreak]

It also indicates that going up to 10 is valuable while 10 to 15 is not worth it for most (most should just chill at 10)

What we don't know is if the people that "flattened out" their loss on 10mg around week 60 then titrated up to 15mg would they have lost more than the people taking 15mg for the majority of the test period?

Only considering the chart/trial data would lead us to conclude no one loses after 60 weeks. I sincerely hope this isn't the case given the popular low-and-slow titration tendency of many in the Tirz pep community. If this turns out to be true, everyone should get up to 15mg as quickly as possible.

 

[chmuse]

What we don't know is if the people that "flattened out" their loss on 10mg around week 60 then titrated up to 15mg would they have lost more than the people taking 15mg for the majority of the test period?

Only considering the chart/trial data would lead us to conclude no one loses after 60 weeks. I sincerely hope this isn't the case given the popular low-and-slow titration tendency of many in the Tirz pep community. If this turns out to be true, everyone should get up to 15mg as quickly as possible.

I mean, a lot of us also graduate to tirz from sema then to reta, and we also play with stacking and adding cagri. I'd imagine our results aren't anywhere near their clinical studies.

 

[Valerie]

I mean, a lot of us also graduate to tirz from sema then to reta, and we also play with stacking and adding cagri. I'd imagine our results aren't anywhere near their clinical studies.

And there are so many variables such as other medications subject is on, sedentary or active, what are they eating, goal wt, starting body composition.... therefore it can't be 1 size fits all.

 

[chmuse]

And there are so many variables such as other medications subject is on, sedentary or active, what are they eating, goal wt, starting body composition.... therefore it can't be 1 size fits all.

If I recall the numbers correctly, Dwight has already lost like 40% of his SW. I'm sure it's all highly variable.

I should look into what their controls were. Did they count calories, or just take the meds? Did they exercise? Etc

 

[GimmeABreak]

I mean, a lot of us also graduate to tirz from sema then to reta, and we also play with stacking and adding cagri. I'd imagine our results aren't anywhere near their clinical studies.

True, but most people taking Tirz aren't us. A friend of mine started branded Tirz, lost 70lbs, had a stroke, went off Tirz during recovery and then started again. I'm not sure what he regained but he probably has another 50-70lbs to lose. He as at 15mg and really not losing anything but keeps on pinning the same 15mg every week. I mentioned that there are "other options" but its a sensitive topic, when he didn't bite I dropped it.

 

[nonyabizznez]

I lost 70lbs in 44wks, 31%. I'm not bragging, I know how hard it can be for some and men generally lose weight easier. Is 1.6lbs/wk a super responder? (never went above 5mg)

I tend to take things more serious when I'm paying for it. I don't think people getting free meds in a study group are as serious. I say this from experience having been in study groups (some even compensated). Other than the Tirz what else did the study group have in common? Calorie limits or exercise requirements or alcohol restrictions? Were they diabetic? Honestly I don't know.

I think people who frequent this forum take their GLP-1 effort seriously. So any of y'all been in one of these Lilly/Novo study groups or perhaps a new medication coming down the pipeline?

 

[Valerie]

A

I lost 70lbs in 44wks, 31%. I'm not bragging, I know how hard it can be for some and men generally lose weight easier. Is 1.6lbs/wk a super responder? (never went above 5mg)

I tend to take things more serious when I'm paying for it. I don't think people getting free meds in a study group are as serious. I say this from experience having been in study groups (some even compensated). Other than the Tirz what else did the study group have in common? Calorie limits or exercise requirements or alcohol restrictions? Were they diabetic? Honestly I don't know.

I think people who frequent this forum take their GLP-1 effort seriously. So any of y'all been in one of these Lilly/Novo study groups or perhaps a new medication coming down the pipeline?

Excellent point about taking it more seriously when paying for it. I began out of pocket Zep 137.50 a week, therefore took it very seriously!

I tracked everything and was determined to make it work ! lol

When I stalled I felt like I was wasting money and yes I slowly increased my dose weekly to help wt loss begin again. I switched to compound and ordered the max dose available even if that wasn't my dose.

If I was in "trial" getting it for freeeee I'm not sure I'd take it as seriously especially knowing I'd have to pay for it after the study was over and all I know is name brand prices knowing I can't afford that unless insurance paid for it.

I have seen comments in Reddit of couples part of Reta trials.

 

[cldfront]

Excellent point about taking it more seriously when paying for it. I began out of pocket Zep 137.50 a week, therefore took it very seriously!

FWIW, I take the weight loss wayyyy more seriously than the money the meds cost. If it was free (and I suppose I am privileged enough to kinda feel that it is, with the current cost of grey?) I'd still be working all the angles and reading all the things. This is the first thing that has ever worked for me like this and it feels like a priceless vial every single time, even though in reality it's only a few bucks. I wouldn't underestimate what this means to people that respond to it.

 

[GimmeABreak]

I tend to take things more serious when I'm paying for it. I don't think people getting free meds in a study group are as serious. I say this from experience having been in study groups (some even compensated). Other than the Tirz what else did the study group have in common? Calorie limits or exercise requirements or alcohol restrictions? Were they diabetic? Honestly I don't know.

That is a super interesting comment/observation. If the participants in these studies keep up their diet of McD's, pizza and nachos there would definitely be a different outcome than a person that exercised, counted calories and daily protein.

There is a user over on The Swiss that is part of one of the Reta studies, I am going to ask him/her/they about the study dietary/exercise or other parameters. From past comments, he/she/they tend to be pretty reserved when mentioning the study but I will see if I can find anything out.

 

[nonyabizznez]

That is a super interesting comment/observation. If the participants in these studies keep up their diet of McD's, pizza and nachos there would definitely be a different outcome than a person that exercised, counted calories and daily protein.

There is a user over on The Swiss that is part of one of the Reta studies, I am going to ask him/her/they about the study dietary/exercise or other parameters. From past comments, he/she/they tend to be pretty reserved when mentioning the study but I will see if I can find anything out.

Sometimes in these studies participants are encouraged NOT to change their diet/lifestyle. They are studying the effects of a drug, not the limits of your willpower or gym motivation.