Autophagy-which aminos break it?

[amosmylove]

The main conclusion I've come to is that AI is useless unless you already know enough about what you're asking to get the correct info, in which case you hardly need it.

That said, I got these two opposing responses when asking the same question differently after researching more seperately. I will err on the side of not taking and MICC shots during a time of fasting. But can anyone clarify these two views on what exactly breaks a fast when the goal of it is autophagy?

Also, for mitochondrial repair/the best benefits of autophagy, it seems that a 48-72 hour fast is best.

How often should one do that fast?

Does BPC-157 or Ghk-cu break the autophagy fast?

Also does anyone know if my 5-htp supplement would break it also?

 

[5byfive]

If you want a 'good' AI response, typing a question into Google search is probably the worst way to go. I recently did some playing around with the different models. ChatGPT seemed especially prone to making stuff. It will lie if it doesn't know the answer or just to save resources. Claude seems to be much more honest. None of them are perfect, but if you ask Claude a detailed question, you will likely get a pretty solid answer.

As to your question, I don't have a clue.

 

[Vash_]

I used to do a 48hr fast once a month. Autophagy really starts kicking in after 72 hours.

Not sure how peps would affect fasting.

 

[tubby]

The main conclusion I've come to is that AI is useless unless you already know enough about what you're asking to get the correct info, in which case you hardly need it.

That said, I got these two opposing responses when asking the same question differently after researching more seperately. I will err on the side of not taking and MICC shots during a time of fasting. But can anyone clarify these two views on what exactly breaks a fast when the goal of it is autophagy?

Also, for mitochondrial repair/the best benefits of autophagy, it seems that a 48-72 hour fast is best.

How often should one do that fast?

Does BPC-157 or Ghk-cu break the autophagy fast?

Also does anyone know if my 5-htp supplement would break it also?

I don't think anyone can give you a definitive answer on this because autophagy is more of a concept than a heavily studied phenomena with hard and fast answers.

I wouldn't expect any of the things you listed to break a water fast, unless you took unusually large quantities or there's some second order effect that I'm missing. And by break a fast I'm referring to what happens when you start eating more than a negligible amount after engaging in an extended fast and your appetite comes back in a very noticeable way.

To the extent that's predictive of autophagy, I'd be surprised if anything you listed had enough caloric content to trigger that effect.

I'll also add that GLPs are a bit of a wildcard and I'm not sure we have any good information on how their use might hinder or enhance autophagy. I recall that there was a recent finding that much of the lean mass lost to GLP-mediated weight loss didn't reduce strength, which suggests that such weight loss itself could either be autophagy or in some ways resemble it. That's very speculative, though and I think it was more just industry trying to defend itself against "muscle loss" accusations that have been commonplace VS a proper investigation of what it actually means.

 

[Devilseye]

There is a definite answer to this. Leucine is a very potent regulator of mtor and a strong inhibitor of autophagy. BCAAs as a class activate mtor and will inhibit autophagy. So i guess thats the answer you are looking for.

 

[amosmylove]

If you want a 'good' AI response, typing a question into Google search is probably the worst way to go. I recently did some playing around with the different models. ChatGPT seemed especially prone to making stuff. It will lie if it doesn't know the answer or just to save resources. Claude seems to be much more honest. None of them are perfect, but if you ask Claude a detailed question, you will likely get a pretty solid answer.

As to your question, I don't have a clue.

Yeah I've definitely noticed chat gpt just pulls stuff out of its computer butt instead of saying it can't answer. I've caught it in so many lies... and then I realize I'm bickering with a computer and feel stupid but amused.

I've never used Claude. I'll look into it. I'm not a huge fan of any ai but when it's what's top of my search results I usually read some of it before moving on to studies articles and whatnot. I know better than to trust anything from google/moderated search results for anything of true substance but for simple queries I use it often.

 

[amosmylove]

There is a definite answer to this. Leucine is a very potent regulator of mtor and a strong inhibitor of autophagy. BCAAs as a class activate mtor and will inhibit autophagy. So i guess thats the answer you are looking for.

Do you know how long after eating/taking those aminos that you body starts to switch to autophagy? Is it something like 12-16 hours? Do these aminos have the same as effect as sugars/carbs towards fasting/autophagy inhibition?

 

[amosmylove]

I used to do a 48hr fast once a month. Autophagy really starts kicking in after 72 hours.

Not sure how peps would affect fasting.

How often would a 72+ hour fast be of benefit? A few times a year? I've seen a breakdown of how that can benefit the body and am fascinated by it.

 

[tubby]

There is a definite answer to this. Leucine is a very potent regulator of mtor and a strong inhibitor of autophagy. BCAAs as a class activate mtor and will inhibit autophagy. So i guess thats the answer you are looking for.

But has it actually been tested? What I'm getting at is at a systemic level whatever you're introducing to your body is a very small amount. Just as consuming 5 grams of sugar (e.g. having a glass or two of lemon water) is hardly going to break a fast, would a typical MICC shot (small amount of select aminos) both counter autophagy and do so in a way it's not a short-lived blip? Now if one is administering via an IM shot, that absorbs very rapidly into your bloodstream so that certainly has the potential rapidly bump concentration in the bloodstream, if administered that way.

You raise a really good point about the signaling and I suspect that's what OP was getting at originally when asking the question.

 

[UnusualLLama]

How often would a 72+ hour fast be of benefit? A few times a year? I've seen a breakdown of how that can benefit the body and am fascinated by it.

I did a few experiments last year, 3 x 5-day water fasts over the course of a few months.

Once you get through the first couple of days, that's when all of the real benefits start to come into play (not to say there aren't any during the initial phase, but it really all starts to happen once your body has depleted its energy stores and you switch to burning fat and get into autophagy).

But the specific experiment I was focused on was fat loss vs. lean tissue loss / strength loss, and what I found is that it really did a number on shredding off some fat with no noticeable loss in strength. Not at least beyond what you'd expect from switching to a different energy system (I was still training/lifting during this period, cardio was noticeable more difficult but lifting felt great honestly).

The best part about it, is that after the fast was done and I'd done my refeeding and had a period of regular eating, my weight stayed down. So it wasn't a bounce-back sort of thing, it stuck.

Fasting, especially longer periods, isn't for everyone and you obviously shouldn't do it if you have other issues that might complicate things.

 

[Devilseye]

Do you know how long after eating/taking those aminos that you body starts to switch to autophagy? Is it something like 12-16 hours? Do these aminos have the same as effect as sugars/carbs towards fasting/autophagy inhibition?

Well the signal transduction cascade to inactivate proteins associated with autophagy happens through protein phosphorylation i.e. no synthesis of new proteins is required. So given that protein phosphorylation is a fairly quick chemical modification, i would deduct that it could take an hour or so after ingestion of a decent amount of leucine. Glucose would not nearly have the same effect. It would mildly raise insulin and activate mtor but youd more need a lot of it to suppress autophagy. i.e. a gram or two of leucine would have equivalent effects to tens of grams of glucose. At least thats what the data in mtor activation seems to indicate. Im a biochemist by trade but not an expert on autophagy per say. More if an expert on apoptosis. Either way maybe someone else can give more detailed information on the various pathways involved and their potency in activating mtor.

 

[Devilseye]

But has it actually been tested? What I'm getting at is at a systemic level whatever you're introducing to your body is a very small amount. Just as consuming 5 grams of sugar (e.g. having a glass or two of lemon water) is hardly going to break a fast, would a typical MICC shot (small amount of select aminos) both counter autophagy and do so in a way it's not a short-lived blip? Now if one is administering via an IM shot, that absorbs very rapidly into your bloodstream so that certainly has the potential rapidly bump concentration in the bloodstream, if administered that way.

You raise a really good point about the signaling and I suspect that's what OP was getting at originally when asking the question.

Biochemically yes. There are various proteins known to be involved in both signal transduction for mtor activation and how mtor inactivate autophagy. The pathway to autophagy is pretty well documented biochemically. You can see autophagy occuring through electron microscopy. It isnt an imaginary event. You can then trace back the phosphorylation of specific proteins and see visually if autophagic structures are still observed. So its a pretty empirical study of the autophagic events.

I suspect that ingesting bcaa’s would only temporarily affect autophagy. Thats how biochemistry usually works. You have competing signals and at any one time the strongest signal wins. So while ingesting leucine would shortcut autophagy you could theoretically be back in fasted state a few hours after no continuous signal. At lesst thats my experience in analyzing biochemical pathways.

 

[tubby]

Biochemically yes. There are various proteins known to be involved in both signal transduction for mtor activation and how mtor inactivate autophagy. The pathway to autophagy is pretty well documented biochemically. You can see autophagy occuring through electron microscopy. It isnt an imaginary event. You can then trace back the phosphorylation of specific proteins and see visually if autophagic structures are still observed. So its a pretty empirical study of the autophagic events.

I suspect that ingesting bcaa’s would only temporarily affect autophagy. Thats how biochemistry usually works. You have competing signals and at any one time the strongest signal wins. So while ingesting leucine would shortcut autophagy you could theoretically be back in fasted state a few hours after no continuous signal. At lesst thats my experience in analyzing biochemical pathways.

Thanks for clarifying. You provide a very convincing rationale.