溢出——是好事还是坏事？

[geoguy78]

I think it's entirely too much money for the testing done. I think the labs are taking advantage of the popularity of peptides just as much as the US suppliers charging 10x the price.

Personally I'm starting to think that the value of third party testing is overrated. All it does is verify that what you bought is what you think it is, how pure the peptide is, and how much peptide a vial contains. What it doesn't tell you are the things people really want to know from a harm reduction standpoint, like what other (potentially hazardous) substances are in the vial. Yes, there have been instances where a vial contained a different peptide than what was ordered (there's a current example of this happening with a recent GB), but how common is that? Yes, there have been instances of drastic over or under fill (under means you're getting ripped off, but it's not dangerous. Most overfills aren't going to be dangerous either) but how common are those instances? I guess I'm just not 100% convinced that it's as necessary as many make it out to be

 

[Dee X]

I think it's entirely too much money for the testing done. I think the labs are taking advantage of the popularity of peptides just as much as the US suppliers charging 10x the price.

I do wonder what it costs for them to operate.

 

[SmokeySquid]

Personally I'm starting to think that the value of third party testing is overrated. All it does is verify that what you bought is what you think it is, how pure the peptide is, and how much peptide a vial contains. What it doesn't tell you are the things people really want to know from a harm reduction standpoint, like what other (potentially hazardous) substances are in the vial. Yes, there have been instances where a vial contained a different peptide than what was ordered (there's a current example of this happening with a recent GB), but how common is that? Yes, there have been instances of drastic over or under fill (under means you're getting ripped off, but it's not dangerous. Most overfills aren't going to be dangerous either) but how common are those instances? I guess I'm just not 100% convinced that it's as necessary as many make it out to be

I figure it’s not that common because people test as often as they do. In an unregulated market where nobody is testing I think most of these venders would be tempted to under fill, cut with something else or otherwise find ways to get more from each transaction. I do wish testing it was cheaper and more comprehensive if only to encourage even more people to test the products that are being sold to us.

 

[geoguy78]

I figure it’s not that common because people test as often as they do. In an unregulated market where nobody is testing I think most of these venders would be tempted to under fill, cut with something else or otherwise find ways to get more from each transaction. I do wish testing it was cheaper and more comprehensive if only to encourage even more people to test the products that are being sold to us.

Maybe so. But it is hard to justify paying hundreds of dollars for testing and destroying a vial (moreso if you aren't buying in large quantities), especially with some of the less trendy peptides costing less for an entire kit than you pay for a test

 

[zpped]

Maybe so. But it is hard to justify paying hundreds of dollars for testing and destroying a vial (moreso if you aren't buying in large quantities), especially with some of the less trendy peptides costing less for an entire kit than you pay for a test

That's why we group together to test things. If everyone stopped testing, the vendors would start sending shit in a few weeks. It's our only power over them.

 

[exploitedworkerbee]

Maybe so. But it is hard to justify paying hundreds of dollars for testing and destroying a vial (moreso if you aren't buying in large quantities), especially with some of the less trendy peptides costing less for an entire kit than you pay for a test

This is where it comes down to risk tolerance. You want a good deal and don’t mind the risk, don’t test it. That doesn’t make testing overrated, it means you don’t think it’s worth the money for the peace of mind you get from it personally. Others have a different relationship with risk and money.

 

[Broken Chef]

Just my take, but I would reconstitute based on the nominal volume and not the CoA volume. Reason being that random batch tests have shown peptide volume being all over the place. The recent Amo group test for example, there were a wide variety of peptide volumes noted. Some over, some under. Now Amo seems to keep their "shot group" pretty tight with their fill amounts, but not all vendors have that kind of fill consistency.

The amo test with the wide range of fill is not typical from a batch. You have 20 people buying over a period of time and there's no way to know if they all came from 1 batch or 6 different batches.

As with any of the vendors, there is no way to know if they are showing you a test from the batch you get. Where the better gb's are more likely to come from one batch. There are other ways to ensure it's a custom batch. And you'll know what I mean if you get into the right gb.

If you find the right gb, I think you'll find that the range between vials tested is minimal - usually.

The reason I like 3 vial tests is so I can take an average of the fill rate and recon based on that.

How you recon and what it is might matter...

If you use say 1ml bac in a 10mg sema vial, but it happens to be 12mg, and you are dividing that into 4 doses, your 25 unit 2.5mg dose is now 3mg because you recon'd based on 10 rather than 12.

If it's 60mg tirz with 65mg in it and you divide it into 12 doses, your 5mg doses are now 5.4 ish and not a big deal.

But there are other peptides that you use 100-300mcg daily, so if a 10mg vial has 12.5mg and you recon with 1ml, that's going to throw off your dosing. If your dose is 6 units, it's already hard to be accurate. If you mistakenly go to 8 and it's over strength, you could be taking 1.5 doses.

I think it's better to be as precise as possible at all times, but maybe that's just my OCD speaking.

 

[relliott152000 2609]

The amo test with the wide range of fill is not typical from a batch. You have 20 people buying over a period of time and there's no way to know if they all came from 1 batch or 6 different batches.

As with any of the vendors, there is no way to know if they are showing you a test from the batch you get. Where the better gb's are more likely to come from one batch. There are other ways to ensure it's a custom batch. And you'll know what I mean if you get into the right gb.

If you find the right gb, I think you'll find that the range between vials tested is minimal - usually.

The reason I like 3 vial tests is so I can take an average of the fill rate and recon based on that.

How you recon and what it is might matter...

If you use say 1ml bac in a 10mg sema vial, but it happens to be 12mg, and you are dividing that into 4 doses, your 25 unit 2.5mg dose is now 3mg because you recon'd based on 10 rather than 12.

If it's 60mg tirz with 65mg in it and you divide it into 12 doses, your 5mg doses are now 5.4 ish and not a big deal.

But there are other peptides that you use 100-300mcg daily, so if a 10mg vial has 12.5mg and you recon with 1ml, that's going to throw off your dosing. If your dose is 6 units, it's already hard to be accurate. If you mistakenly go to 8 and it's over strength, you could be taking 1.5 doses.

I think it's better to be as precise as possible at all times, but maybe that's just my OCD speaking.

I have been reading y’all’s posts *literally since 7pm yesterday* as a complete newbie who came from (gasp!) Reddit - and holy shizz this particular formation of words you just assembled has got my head SPINNING . Man, I have a lot to learn.

 

[Broken Chef]

I have been reading y’all’s posts *literally since 7pm yesterday* as a complete newbie who came from (gasp!) Reddit - and holy shizz this particular formation of words you just assembled has got my head SPINNING . Man, I have a lot to learn.

Lol, don't take my criticism of reddit newbs so seriously. I had just left a FB group because I couldn't handle the stupid questions anymore.. and I've only been at this about 5 months. I'm just disabled and spent a stupid amount of time researching, like 40+hrs/week, lol Most of what I say is from what I've read 1000 times, some from personal experience, some from common sense, some because I can and you'd really have to piss off Zip to no end to get banned from here, lol

"I just got my tirz but it's all dried up, I think it's old, is this safe, can I just add some water"?

It's simple - Prove you've done your research by not asking questions like that, or questions that were already answered 5 times in the same thread. Zero need to validate your research with me.

I'm not a senior member in any sense other than the time I've been here and the amount of posts I've made. At the rate others are contributing, there will be 100 more "senior members" in about 3 months, unless Zip changes those settings.

There were barely 1000 members here when I came in, and maybe 10-15 were active. I suppose it's partially my OCD that doesn't want to deal with 500 new people every week. I tried to help as many as I could, and even welcomed almost every single one who posted an introduction, but it's suddenly not possible. So it's more me and my OCD. As I said, I'm very much self aware and will call myself out just as fast as anyone else.

I do believe, for the most part, if you found your way here by talking to people on Reddit or on your own means, you are at least doing some research. And my fear is that there will be an abundance of FB type people going to reddit, seeing the link to here, then flooding this place with nonsense. It's hard for me personally to keep up with the influx, the previous lack of mods was concerning. It was pretty much just Zip, when he had time, and he relied on a few others to report concerning content. I do hope that the current mods, and perhaps more, will become an ongoing thing. They tend to be more level headed than me, and have more experience, as Zip said in his recent posts.

But I'm glad I was able to open your eyes a bit, and if nothing else, you can see where my concern comes from.

I am split on Dionysos's spreadsheets. I think they are helpful to newcomers, but I don't think most heed the disclaimer that it's meerly a starting point, not carved in stone. Things can go wrong that we don't learn about until 1-2 months later. If 200 people a day come in here and order from Amo, then 2 months later we learn there was an issue, there could be thousands of people who got screwed, in 1 way it another. An extreme scenario, but makes a point.

As Zip says, NONE of the vendors here or even mentioned here are "Endorsed" by the forum. This is critical info that I think a lot of people ignore, or don't even bother to read, and is why EWB and others are so critical of the spreadsheets. It does border shilling. I know that's not Dionysos's intent, but in this world of chaos and scams, everything is scrutinized.

That said, I will admit that I too based my very first purchase off of that spreadsheet when it was first formed. But only after talking extensively with Dionysos and others, and before I even got here. Once I learned he loves his wife, lol, and I even asked him that, I chose to order from the place he used for HER peptides. But that was a judgement call on my part and my own ass if it didn't pan out. I fear others might be more prone to put the blame on him if there was a problem... Or even the forum for allowing it. In a world of constant frivolous lawsuits, you can't be too careful.

I have talked with him extensively, and he does take those sheets very seriously and does all he can to keep them current. But no 1 person is perfect , and even with the few others that contribute, things can be missed and, as I said, there can be issues we don't learn about until months later. Personally, I won't order from Amo and don't see the draw. The only thing I see they excel at is expedited shipping. If that's someone's main concern, along with being cheaper than domestic, then I don't think they've done enough research. It's an Amazon mentality... I want it NOW! Not saying Amo has bad products, just that my research led me to other options that I personally see as MUCH better.

 

[moonpies4misfits]

There were barely 1000 members here when I came in, and maybe 10-15 were active. I suppose it's partially my OCD that doesn't want to deal with 500 new people every week. I tried to help as many as I could, and even welcomed almost every single one who posted an introduction, but it's suddenly not possible.

I've only been here about two and a half months and I'm feeling this too. Pretty sure the member count has almost doubled in that time. At least 400 new members in the last few weeks. The main reasons this became my favorite forum was the fact that everyone here had at least a remedial understanding of how this world works and I was actually able to learn without having to scroll through countless "why is there powder in my vial" and so on.

Not that I have an issue with this forum gaining traction in general. I just hope that all the new members do some reading before immediately posting questions.

 

[Dee X]

我来这里才两个半月，也有同样的感受。我敢肯定，这段时间会员人数几乎翻了一番。过去几周至少新增了400名会员。这个论坛之所以成为我最喜欢的论坛，主要原因在于这里每个人都对这个领域有所了解，我可以真正学到东西，而不用费力地翻阅无数个“为什么我的药瓶里有粉末”之类的帖子。

当然，我并不反对这个论坛发展壮大。我只是希望所有新会员在发帖提问之前，都能先阅读一些内容。

比在Reddit上刷那些丧气话强多了：

“我已经三个星期没拉屎了，要不要去看医生？”

“服用GLP-1类药物算作弊吗？”

“现在凌晨三点睡不着，昨晚喝了三升伏特加，吃了七个芝士汉堡……现在拉肚子拉到不行。我的Ozempic剂量是不是太高了？”

 

[Bacchus]

我个人开始觉得第三方检测的价值被高估了。它只能验证你买的东西是否符合你的预期，肽的纯度如何，以及每瓶肽的含量。但它无法告诉你从减少危害的角度来看人们真正想知道的信息，比如瓶中还含有哪些其他（潜在的有害）物质。没错，确实存在过瓶中肽与订单不符的情况（最近一次团购就发生了这种情况），但这种情况有多普遍呢？没错，也确实存在过严重超量或不足的情况（不足意味着你被坑了，但这并不危险。大多数超量的情况也不会造成危险），但这些情况有多普遍呢？我想我只是不太相信它像许多人认为的那样必要。

The willingness the vendor has to jump through some hoops, makes a difference even if the test doesn’t really hold that much value.

And the part you are forgetting, is that the grey market is the grey market.

Since there usually are a few links in the chain before you get your product. There is a chance the vendor doesn’t know what they are sending if they don’t do routine tests.

And if you go look for vendors in Facebook groups, I doubt you’ll need to do a lot of orders before you start looking for vendors with lab tests again.

The insistence on testing, and people doing their own tests, group buys doing tests etc probably helps keep more vendors honest too.

So, are the tests necessary - probably not. But for any vendor buying batches at a decent size, the test cost Isn’t exactly high per tested vial

 

[zpped]

The amo test with the wide range of fill is not typical from a batch

I think this is a weird interpretation of the results of that test. The average fill was within about 1% of the target and they were all within about 5%. These are pretty great results.

 

[Broken Chef]

I think this is a weird interpretation of the results of that test. The average fill was within about 1% of the target and they were all within about 5%. These are pretty great results.

Maybe we are talking about 2 different tests - If I recall correctly, the T60 ranged from like 55 to 64 - That's about a 17% swing from one side to the other. Sure, the average is good, but if your vial tested at 55, your kit is potentially 50mg short... almost an entire vial worth. I wouldn't call that great by any stretch of the imagination when other batch tests are generally within a gram or two, and usually all to one side of the fill.

It's also an inaccurate representation because there is a good chance the 20 people who put in got product from different batches. You cant take an average across multiple batches. That's just not how it works

 

[geoguy78]

It's also an inaccurate representation because there is a good chance the 20 people who put in got product from different batches. You cant take an average across multiple batches. That's just not how it works

This is why I'm starting to be less enthused about the utility of testing than when I first started looking into research peptides. Ultimately any test you do is representative of one vial. There's no guarantee that all ten vials in the kit you receive are from the same batch! Amopure uses the same cap color for everything, for example. Would be really easy for them to just mix whatever they want. Or for there to be a mishap and a Reta vial accidentally gets into the Tirz bin. We don't even know what their facilities and processes are like. This is all just a shot in the dark, and the biggest value of testing, in my opinion, is showing long term trends with vendors, and not in answering the question of "is my kit good or not?"

 

[Broken Chef]

There's no guarantee that all ten vials in the kit you receive are from the same batch!

No guarantee when you buy a few kits on your own from a vendor. If you use a gb, some of the better ones use vendors who make batches for the buy. If the buy is big enough, the vendor has no reason to not do this. Some vote on what cap color the vendor will use for the batch, so unless the vendor happens to have multiple batches with various colored caps, it's a pretty sure thing that it's a custom batch. And some groups even supply their own custom colored crimps/caps to the vendor.

When you get a 3 vial test done, where the vials are randomly selected from the kits received, and they are all within 1mg of each other and within a tenth of a percent of purity, it's a pretty good indicator that it's all from the same batch. Sure some can vary, but not like what we saw with the Amo T60 test.. 55-64 is a HUGE difference compared to what we generally see.

Amopure uses the same cap color for everything

LOL Just 1 more reason to hope I'll never have to use them!

 

[geoguy78]

If you use a gb, some of the better ones use vendors who make batches for the buy

This is partly why I mentioned to you earlier that I'm going to start looking more heavily at the real GB world. Would rather be part of a group that's at least trying to call some of the shots and use leverage.

 

[zpped]

No one has ever tested that many vials before though. Outliers are bound to exist in every batch, we just rarely get to see them. I don't think amo is the best choice for other reasons but I'm very impressed with their accuracy.

Specifically about the low fill you mentioned, everyone should always treat every vial as the average of available measurements. GLP1 dosing isn't very tight anyways.

 

[geoguy78]

No one has ever tested that many vials before though. Outliers are bound to exist in every batch, we just rarely get to see them. I don't think amo is the best choice for other reasons but I'm very impressed with their accuracy.

Specifically about the low fill you mentioned, everyone should always treat every vial as the average of available measurements. GLP1 dosing isn't very tight anyways.

That quantity of tests from different individual orders is why I bought a kit from Amo. It was large enough that I felt like I could make a reasonable assumption about the overall risk factor and what I'd be getting ordering from Amo. Not sure I'd use them again though.

 

[scarywood75]

The willingness the vendor has to jump through some hoops, makes a difference even if the test doesn’t really hold that much value.

And the part you are forgetting, is that the grey market is the grey market.

Since there usually are a few links in the chain before you get your product. There is a chance the vendor doesn’t know what they are sending if they don’t do routine tests.

And if you go look for vendors in Facebook groups, I doubt you’ll need to do a lot of orders before you start looking for vendors with lab tests again.

The insistence on testing, and people doing their own tests, group buys doing tests etc probably helps keep more vendors honest too.

So, are the tests necessary - probably not. But for any vendor buying batches at a decent size, the test cost Isn’t exactly high per tested vial

Very true, to me testing is also a way to ensure vendors are more careful with what they send.

If we were not testing, I'm sure we would receive shit products everytime