Tesa & Ipa!

[Calm Logic]

Bumping with a Gemini perspective for estimating increase in IGF-1, but I don't have enough experience to gauge accuracy, even for me.

L refers to low responder. H to high responder. 5/2 refers to 5 days on, 2 days off:

Compound Dose Daily IGF-1 Increase (L/H) 5/2 IGF-1 Increase (L/H) Fluid Risk (Daily vs 5/2) Insulin Risk (Daily vs 5/2) Sermorelin 500 mcg +10-15% / +25-35% +7-12% / +18-25% Very Low / Negligible None / None Ipamorelin 250 mcg +15-25% / +40-55% +10-18% / +30-40% Low / Very Low None / None Tesamorelin 2 mg +30-50% / +80-110% +22-35% / +60-80% Low-Mod / Low Neutral / Improved HGH (Repl.) 1 IU +20-40% / +60-80% +15-30% / +45-60% Mod / Low Low / Negligible CJC + Ipa 100/250mcg +45-65% / +90-120% +32-48% / +65-85% Moderate / Low Low / Very Low Hexarelin 200 mcg +50-75% / +100-130% +35-55% / +75-95% Moderate / Low Neutral / Neutral HGH (Mod.) 2 IU +50-80% / +110-140% +35-60% / +80-105% High / Mod Mod / Low CJC (DAC) 2 mg/wk +70-100% / +130-160% +70-100% / +130-160% High / N/A High / N/A HGH (Perf.) 3 IU +80-110% / +180-230% +60-85% / +130-170% V. High / High High / Mod HGH (Aggr.) 4 IU +120-150% / +250-350% +90-115% / +180-250% Extreme / V. High V. High / High

 

[Calm Logic]

If you wear a ring like a wedding ring, that is one way to evaluate fluid build-up with tesa or HGH:

The "Ring Test" for your HGH protocol:

The Baseline: Note how your ring fits on Monday morning (after your 2 days off). This is your "dry" state.

The Build-up: Observe the fit on Friday morning (after 5 days of HGH). If the ring is significantly harder to turn or leaves a deep indentation mark, your interstitial fluid pressure is high.

The Warning Sign: If you cannot remove the ring at all on Friday, it’s a strong signal that the dose is overwhelming your kidneys' ability to process sodium.

Gemini on a small study on HGH:

To reach the +1.5 SDS level (the high end of normal), the average participant only needed about 1.3 IU per day [65.6% men, mean age 46.6 years]. This is much lower than the "bodybuilding" doses often discussed online (which frequently start at 2–4 IU).

All 32 participants had a confirmed diagnosis of GH deficiency. In these individuals, the "baseline" without medication is a state of very low IGF-1, increased body fat, and decreased muscle mass.

 

[Such1943]

You need to get your IGF-1 tested. You want to be within Z score of 2-3. IGF-1 z score above 3 long term causes acromegaly and you start looking like Sylvester Stallone.

I used 1ui nightly for this bloodwork from 2/4. bumped it to 2ui after.

[Imported image pending local asset: attachments-1772122886003-webp.16571]

 

[RoyGBiv]

Individual response to HGH varies pretty wildly, and estrogen levels can impact it (more estrogen, more response, to a certain point)

4IU is enough to put me right above 500 IGF-1, which is more than you would need for fat loss/recomp type purposes, but 3-4 IU are pretty common amounts for people to settle on. Start a little low, titrate up after a couple of weeks. People tend to get swelling, edema, carpal tunnel, etc., if they go too high too fast.

I'm happy I respond well to HGH, since I respond like jack shit to testosterone itself. All the way up to 250mg/w now and still in reference range, lol.

One thing to keep in mind with both tesa/ip and regular HGH is that you will put on some additional water weight when you start, and potentially again as you go up in dosage, so the scale might move up instead of down as your body gets used to it.

I know its been some time but do you not need TRT if you take HGH?

 

[Calm Logic]

How long were you on 1 iu? Do you know what your natural/previous baseline was?

My IGF was 193 natural (the only IGF result I have so far), but I am waiting for results for a new baseline (after taking hexarelin on-and-off). Restarting HGH now and will test again in four weeks or so.

For testing, did you use a lab discount website? I use Fitomics since they still have the cheapest price for IGF-1 at $14 with Labcorp (with a $30 monthly membership, but you can order future tests as well). GoodLabs is more competitive for testosterone-related testing. For IGF-1 with GoodLabs: draw fee plus $27 with Quest or $36 with Labcorp.

 

[Such1943]

I did not know my natural IGF-1 levels. Jumped on TRT without knowing better to get a baseline unfortunately.

01/05 results on 160mg test was:

[Imported image pending local asset: attachments-1772125656773-webp.16574]

[Imported image pending local asset: attachments-1772125726289-webp.16575]

E2 was in good range for my feels, but it effects IGF-1. I added 1ui.

02/04 results on 200mg test & 150mg Primo:

[Imported image pending local asset: attachments-1772125870837-webp.16576]

[Imported image pending local asset: attachments-1772125887856-webp.16577]

crushed my e2 with Primo, live and learn. Adjusted test to counter e2, felt better after a week. I bumped up to 2ui HGH. Should mention I was 8 weeks into recomp working out 5 days a week so my body fat% was lower than 1/05 also effecting e2/IGF-1. Going in for more bloodwork on 3/23.

I use goodlabs /w 20% off referral. My code is RWC65P.

Test: Insulin-Like Growth Factor I (IGF-1) via Quest — listed at $27.00

Processing Fee: Lab draw and processing — $12.00

Subtotal: $39.00

Discount: 20% off (from referring someone) — -$7.80

Total Due: $31.20

Lipid Panel is only $8 and some other good stuff for cheap.

 

[Calm Logic]

Primo raised my LDL like crazy. I discontinued it before testing estrogen, etc. I may be done with steroids completely, including test, depending how I do naturally.

TRT levels of test can even be good for endothelial function (opposite can be true for supraphysiological), but there's also the effects of DHT, etc. My initial/only primo experience was fine until the LDL results. Anavar skyrocketed my liver enzymes.

 

[Such1943]

Primo raised my LDL like crazy.

1/5 before Primo on Keto for 1.5 years.

[Imported image pending local asset: attachments-1772127538726-webp.16580]

Got on Rosuvastatin 5mg daily for about 2 weeks, so probably not fully saturated.

2/4 with primo and carb loading only around workouts Pre-workout carbs: 39g, Post-workout carbs: 79g. Target: 2020 Calories | 225g Protein | 72g Fat | ~118g Net Carbs

[Imported image pending local asset: attachments-1772127645958-webp.16581]

getting better....

Anavar skyrocketed my liver enzymes.

I want to try it pre-workout on upper days, or some TNE. I need to remind myself to take it slow or I'll be a full addict with shit blood work. It's a slippery slope.

I may be done with steroids completely.

This is my slow start. Maybe a subject for another forum or DM. I like to shoot the shit, but this is not Meso.

 

[Calm Logic]

Circling back to IGF-1, how do you think it got so high (408)? Anything besides taking test and having high E2? Were you on any GH peptides at any time beforehand?

 

[Such1943]

KLOW, SS-31/NAD+/Mots-C protocol, Reta, & Test. My E2 was elevated and 25% body fat or so. I am also meso-endomorph, I can build and keep muscle like nothing but also pack on fat just as fast overeating. It’s probably just genetic. I lost almost no muscle compared to fat on Reta just eating cleaner and trying to eat as much protein Reta would allow.

 

[Calm Logic]

So far, your two results for IGF-1 both seem very educational/surprising.

 

[Such1943]

So far, your two results for IGF-1 both seem very educational/surprising.

I'm really looking forward to my next blood work. I'm pushing up to some moderate doses of some compounds. They are either going to be trash and I pull back or continue till June and cruse TRT for another lean bulk in Dec. So far the results have been amazing for recomp.

For peptides I'm just going to stick to Reta and KLOW for now. Although I really liked the SS-31/NAD+/Most-c combo, I'll probably do it again in my cruse. I am already feeling like a pin cushion pinning daily.

But for real, test 160mg/week, Reta 8mg/week and 2ui HGH daily had me feeling great before I started messing around with other shit. Still feel great but cannot point to what is doing what anymore.

 

[sfkid]

Individual response to HGH varies pretty wildly, and estrogen levels can impact it (more estrogen, more response, to a certain point)

4IU is enough to put me right above 500 IGF-1, which is more than you would need for fat loss/recomp type purposes, but 3-4 IU are pretty common amounts for people to settle on. Start a little low, titrate up after a couple of weeks. People tend to get swelling, edema, carpal tunnel, etc., if they go too high too fast.

I'm happy I respond well to HGH, since I respond like jack shit to testosterone itself. All the way up to 250mg/w now and still in reference range, lol.

One thing to keep in mind with both tesa/ip and regular HGH is that you will put on some additional water weight when you start, and potentially again as you go up in dosage, so the scale might move up instead of down as your body gets used to it.

Do you cycle or just daily on going?

 

[Calm Logic]

For preventing carpal tunnel and fluid retention, some on Meso mention taurine:

5-10g taurine per day keeps the HGH sides away.

I used to get crippling carpal tunnel. Taurine cured it to the point that if all my HGH wasn't from the same batch I would think it's fake. Zero carpal tunnel issues

I already use up to 6 grams a day of taurine powder (divided into two doses, with creatine powder in the same drink). I also take Jardiance daily, which has a strong diuretic effect compared to dandelion.

Recommended Protocol for HGH Edema

If you are moving forward with HGH, the "Gold Standard" supplement stack to prevent the "puffy face" or "carpal tunnel" feeling often looks like this:

Taurine: 2–3 grams daily (split into two doses).

Potassium: Ensure high dietary intake (aim for 4,700 mg/day) to counter HGH-induced sodium retention.

Hydration: Paradoxically, drinking more water tells your body it doesn't need to hold onto its current supply

Strategy / Supplement Effectiveness Mechanism for HGH/Peptides Taurine (2-3g) High Natural osmolyte; pulls water into muscle cells and out of the skin. Dose Tapering High Allows kidneys to adapt to sodium-retention signals slowly. Potassium (Dietary) High Acts as a "sodium antagonist" to flush excess fluid. Dandelion Root Moderate Mild natural diuretic for cosmetic water weight. Vitamin B6 (P-5-P) Moderate Helps regulate fluid balance and potential prolactin shifts. ALA (R-ALA) Low/Indirect Prevents "insulin-driven" sodium retention by improving sensitivity.

 

[Such1943]

Do you cycle or just daily on going?

I take it every night.

Also what Hex said about taking too much to fast can cause issues is what I experienced. When I did 2ui morning before fasted cardio and a 2ui at night right off the bat. I was exhausted during the day like a muscle relaxer hang over and had carpel tunnel at night. I backed it down to .5 ui at night and slowly went up from there.

 

[sfkid]

I take it every night.

Also what Hex said about taking too much to fast can cause issues is what I experienced. When I did 2ui morning before fasted cardio and a 2ui at night right off the bat. I was exhausted during the day like a muscle relaxer hang over and had carpel tunnel at night. I backed it down to .5 ui at night and slowly went up from there.

Is the plan to stay on it forever ? Just trying to figure out what long term plan is.

 

[Such1943]

Is the plan to stay on it forever ? Just trying to figure out what long term plan is.

Planning on Reta/Test/HGH for the foreseeable future. Those 3 out everything I've done so far has had the most positive effect. Wish I started years ago, feel 10 year younger. Fixing my hormones have been an 180 in life. I thought that being fat, lazy, lethargic, unmotivated, mild depression was just apart of aging past 40. That all changed 3 weeks into TRT.

 

[sfkid]

Planning on Reta/Test/HGH for the foreseeable future. Those 3 out everything I've done so far has had the most positive effect. Wish I started years ago, feel 10 year younger. Fixing my hormones have been an 180 in life. I thought that being fat, lazy, lethargic, unmotivated, mild depression was just apart of aging past 40. That all changed 3 weeks into TRT.

+1000%... Big pharma wants everyone weak and frail. With all the advancements in research and ease of accessibility almost anyone can live an enhanced life instead of just getting by.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[Calm Logic]

You need to get your IGF-1 tested. You want to be within Z score of 2-3. IGF-1 z score above 3 long term causes acromegaly and you start looking like Sylvester Stallone.

My current, natural baseline (for almost-49-year-old male):

[Imported image pending local asset: attachments-screenshot-2026-02-28-094248-webp.16761]

A Z-score of zero is being exactly at the median (50th percentile):

Z-Score Percentile Classification Age 35 (ng/mL) Age 50 (ng/mL) +3.0 99.9% Pathological High (Acromegaly) 380+ 300+ +2.0 97.7% High Normal (Lab Ceiling) 315 250 +1.0 84.1% Above Average (Performance) 250 195 0.0 50.0% Median (Dead Average) 185 145 -1.0 15.9% Below Average (Longevity) 120 95 -2.0 2.3% Low Normal (Lab Floor) 70 50 -3.0 0.1% Pathological Low (Deficiency)

 

[Calm Logic]

Fat loss regarding Z-score:

Z-Score Range Metabolic State Tesamorelin Impact Ipa + Tesa Combo HGH Impact Total Fat Loss Potency +1.0 to +2.0 OPTIMAL FAT LOSS Visceral Selective: Elite for deep belly/liver fat (ALT benefit). Synergistic Pulse: Strongest natural GH spike; low edema. Systemic Lipolysis: Hits fat layers across the entire body. Maximum: HGH leads on total weight; Tesa leads on waist reduction. 0.0 to +1.0 Maintenance Preserves lean mass; steady but slow VAT reduction. Recovery Focus: Enhanced sleep and tissue repair. Supports recovery; minimal active fat loss. Moderate: Best for steady body recomposition. > +2.0 Supraphysiological Pituitary "saturation" point; diminishing returns. Unlikely to exceed +2.0 without exogenous help. Insulin Resistance: High risk of blunting receptors/A1C. Variable: Fat loss often hidden by high water retention (edema).

Related supplements/meds for being on GH and/or TRT:

GH Rank TRT Rank Combo Rank Compound Clinical Synergy / Protocol Focus 1 12 1 Retatrutide Metabolic Master: Physically deletes GH-induced insulin resistance. 5 1 2 Tadalafil (5mg) Arterial Health: Directly reverses vascular stiffness from IGF-1/TRT. 2 11 3 Statin ApoB Master: Essential for clearing mobilized fats from peptides. 7 2 4 Telmisartan Organ Shield: Superior BP/Kidney protection; PPAR-γ support. 3 13 5 Jardiance Glucose Dump: Renal sugar removal; synergistic with Reta. 6 3 6 Magnesium Mineral Anchor: Prevents Reta-induced heart rate (RHR) spikes. 9 4 7 Ubiquinol Lipid Armor: Non-negotiable if using a Statin or GH-peptides. 10 5 8 Taurine Universal Buffer: Manages HCT viscosity and renal osmotic stress. 4 14 9 Berberine Insulin Guard: Acts on liver/gut to maintain sensitivity. 8 9 10 TUDCA Cellular Quality: ER stress relief for high protein synthesis phases. 13 6 11 Nattokinase Viscosity Guard: Mandatory for managing "thick blood" on TRT. 11 10 12 L-Citrulline NO Synergy: Works with Tadalafil for maximum vascular flexibility. 14 7 13 Omega-3s Vascular Health: Supports membrane fluidity and anti-inflammation. 12 8 14 Vit K2 (MK-7) Calcium Traffic: Prevents arterial calcification (CAC).

Risk Level Interaction Combo Physiological Impact The Mandatory Shield Strategy CRITICAL Statin + Ubiquinol Statins deplete CoQ10 armor; increases Ox-LDL risk during fat loss. Ubiquinol (200mg+) to protect mobilized visceral fats. CRITICAL Telmisartan + Jardiance Dual-pressure on kidneys; can lead to "false" high Creatinine. Taurine (3g+) & Hyper-Hydration (3L+ Water). HIGH TRT + Jardiance + Reta "Thick Blood" Syndrome (High RBC count + Low Plasma Volume). Nattokinase & Taurine to maintain blood pliability. MODERATE Tadalafil + Telmi + Jard Quadruple BP crash and Orthostatic Hypotension (dizziness). Stagger Dosing (Tad/Jard AM; Telmi/Statin PM). MONITOR Reta + Jard + Mag Excessive renal flushing of Magnesium and Potassium. High-Dose Magnesium to protect the heart's pacemaker.