Reta washout timeout

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BLASIUS

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Hi,

it's almost 1 year I am on GLP1 treatment (6 months on tirze and almost 6 on reta), during this period I lost around 18Kgs, and I am in the middle of my weight loss journey.

Because I have been facing some problems with my heart (Atrial Fibrillation) and I am using anticoagulant medicines (Apixaban) I decided to stop the GLP1 injections. My idea is to stop the injection for at least 1 month, hoping that in the meantime AF will stop (maybe I will resort to electrical cardioversion).

I wonder your opinion about the opportunity or the risk to have a washout period in general, e.g. 1 month per year, expecially for people that are planning to use GLP1 medication for the rest of their life.
 
It might be worth considering tirz instead, the research on reta and cardiovascular disease is really not out yet, and I am sure it will say in the long term it improves outcomes like sema and tirz do. The current research does not really support this, but from what I see just on this forum I suspect that the effects of reta on heart rate and cardiovascular disease will have to be considered especially when starting it. Logically it almost has to make some arrrythmias worse, and some people get quite large increases in heart rate. The issues a few people get with sleep or anxiety or even panic attacks do seem to be specific for reta, suggesting that the increased sympathetic nervous system activity is pretty variable between people and can be a significant problem. Tirz causes much smaller average heart rate increases 2-3 bpm vs reta 7 on average.

At some point I expect to see a paper published on reta and arrythmias and reta and panic attacks, but has not happened yet. Please note I am in no way suggesting this might be a common or likely side effect.

Probably worth asking a cardiologist. And I think you have to be a bit careful with GLP's and anticoagulants as the slow gastric emptying can alter absorption so close monitoring is needed when or if you restart it assuming it is warfarin you are taking.

Just out of interest is the AF new and only start after you started reta? And it would be interesting to see if it resolves with stopping reta for a while.
 
lessthanhalf said:
It might be worth considering tirz instead, the research on reta and cardiovascular disease is really not out yet, and I am sure it will say in the long term it improves outcomes like sema and tirz do. The current research does not really support this, but from what I see just on this forum I suspect that the effects of reta on heart rate and cardiovascular disease will have to be considered especially when starting it. Logically it almost has to make some arrrythmias worse, and some people get quite large increases in heart rate. The issues a few people get with sleep or anxiety or even panic attacks do seem to be specific for reta, suggesting that the increased sympathetic nervous system activity is pretty variable between people and can be a significant problem. Tirz causes much smaller average heart rate increases 2-3 bpm vs reta 7 on average.
My AF is asynptomatic, my HR is low 50 bpm daily medium, it increased a little bit when I started using reta (it was around 47-48 previously). This isn't my first time I am facing AF, the first time was 2 years ago and it happend because a severe disihydration due to a gastroenteritis (at that time I wasn't using any GLP1 medication). I am quite convinced that the new one occurred because I had several diarrhea episodes during last months that caused low blood pressure and disihydration. So reta is not directly responsible for the new AF episode, maybe it caused diarrhea and disihydratation and so on. I am quite sure that the maximum dosage of reta I can tolerate without side effect is 5mg/w (it was the same with tirze)

lessthanhalf said:
Probably worth asking a cardiologist. And I think you have to be a bit careful with GLP's and anticoagulants as the slow gastric emptying can alter absorption so close monitoring is needed when or if you restart it assuming it is warfarin you are taking.
It was my cardiologist that suggested me to use GLP1 medication (Tirze of course not Reta), and he was really surprised about how many benefits I collected during the last year (BP was in normal range, Blood works improved a lot etc,). So he knows about GLP1 and he said me that there is no correlation with AF. I am assuming Apixaban as anticoagulant 5mgx2 daily. So I decided to stop GLP1 injection just to avoid unknown complications.

lessthanhalf said:
Just out of interest is the AF new and only start after you started reta? And it would be interesting to see if it resolves with stopping reta for a while.
The first time it resolved spontaneusly after 3 weeks about, this new time maybe it will not, and the cardiologist said me that in any case if it last more then 4 week it will be better to proceed with electrical cardioversion.

The question I am investigating is more general, and it is related to the opportunity to have a washout period (eg 1 month per year) using GLP1, in case you are planning to use that for the rest of your life.
 
BLASIUS said:
The question I am investigating is more general, and it is related to the opportunity to have a washout period (eg 1 month per year) using GLP1, in case you are planning to use that for the rest of your life.
Washout periods/cycling seem to be specifically counter productive to the long term efficacy of the GLP1 and the weight loss endeavor.

JCI Insight - Cycling GLP-1 receptor agonist treatment induces therapeutic resistance and increased adiposity

What are you trying to accomplish with the cycling, since the AF doesn’t seem to be related to the long term use of peptides?
 
woundcarping said:
Washout periods/cycling seem to be specifically counter productive to the long term efficacy of the GLP1 and the weight loss endeavor.

JCI Insight - Cycling GLP-1 receptor agonist treatment induces therapeutic resistance and increased adiposity

What are you trying to accomplish with the cycling, since the AF doesn’t seem to be related to the long term use of peptides?
Anyone thinking about trying a GLP it should be mandatory to read this study to understand the commitment to there decision. The Reta Gym Bros are having a hard time understanding there really is no cycle. Once you board the train and attempt to exit it will be a rough landing and the next train coming ain't going to your town.
 
I was on Victoza at the time of a radiofrequency ablation for atrial flutter. I’ve continued taking Xarelto ever since, first while on Tirz, then Tirz+Reta. No contraindications have been reported. My heart rate plateau after exercise is a bit high, but neither my cardiologist nor my primary care physician is concerned, so I’m not worried either.

Other peptides, such as SS31, tend to lower my heart rate by 10-15 beats per minute during sustained aerobic exercise.
 
woundcarping said:
What are you trying to accomplish with the cycling, since the AF doesn’t seem to be related to the long term use of peptides?
My main goal is to solve the diarrhea issue, I would like to start GLP1 meds again only after that I have no more diarrhea. Even it is manageable (it is not continuos during the week, it occurs no more than 2 days a week), I am convinced that it caused the saline disorder and the low blood pressure that caused the AF.
 
woundcarping said:
Washout periods/cycling seem to be specifically counter productive to the long term efficacy of the GLP1 and the weight loss endeavor.

JCI Insight - Cycling GLP-1 receptor agonist treatment induces therapeutic resistance and increased adiposity

What are you trying to accomplish with the cycling, since the AF doesn’t seem to be related to the long term use of peptides?
Thank you si Much, Thus us really interesting.

Il would love toi have a section un this group with science based studies or articles.
 
BLASIUS said:
My main goal is to solve the diarrhea issue, I would like to start GLP1 meds again only after that I have no more diarrhea. Even it is manageable (it is not continuos during the week, it occurs no more than 2 days a week), I am convinced that it caused the saline disorder and the low blood pressure that caused the AF.

This thread is a whirlwind of direction.

Split dosing, dose reduction, consistency, and potentially supplements have been helpful for symptom reduction.
 
chewonmysac said:
...The Reta Gym Bros are having a hard time understanding there really is no cycle...

I dunno, for big'n's there's not much to support cycling. Gym folks cutting could be built different.
 
woundcarping said:
This thread is a whirlwind of direction.

Split dosing, dose reduction, consistency, and potentially supplements have been helpful for symptom reduction.
I have been using many supplements in order to reduce Reta side effects (Diarrhea mainly), the one that give me very good result was the Psillio Husk (1 spoon in the morning and 1 in the evening). That helped me a lot in manage the diarrhea symptom, but unfortunately diarrhea didn't disappear completely, it continues in a quiescent form.

The low blood pressure that I have been experiencing for a few weeks, I think has been a consequence of that.

So I really want to stop diarrhea completely, and start again using glp1 meds as it was at the beginning of the journey.

I understand that GLP1 cycle is not a good idea, but how can I stop diarrhea otherwise?
 
BLASIUS said:
I have been using many supplements in order to reduce Reta side effects (Diarrhea mainly), the one that give me very good result was the Psillio Husk (1 spoon in the morning and 1 in the evening). That helped me a lot in manage the diarrhea symptom, but unfortunately diarrhea didn't disappear completely, it continues in a quiescent form.

The low blood pressure that I have been experiencing for a few weeks, I think has been a consequence of that.

So I really want to stop diarrhea completely, and start again using glp1 meds as it was at the beginning of the journey.

I understand that GLP1 cycle is not a good idea, but how can I stop diarrhea otherwise?

I agree that fiber is a supplement worth considering. I have not taken psyllium husk fiber... I do take the less aggressive, perhaps more universal PHGG fiber.

What dose were you on? When I was escalating my dose a while back, I had a bout of "non-transient urgency." Nothing crazy, but noticeable, I stepped my dose back a bit, for a bit, before moving on. Now I take 18mg/week and am content with my GI function... it's better than before I started taking peptides.

Obviously what works for me won't necessarily work for you, but if the goal is to lose weight using GLP1, cycling is presumptively antithetical towards that goal.
 
woundcarping said:
I agree that fiber is a supplement worth considering. I have not taken psyllium husk fiber... I do take the less aggressive, perhaps more universal PHGG fiber.

What dose were you on? When I was escalating my dose a while back, I had a bout of "non-transient urgency." Nothing crazy, but noticeable, I stepped my dose back a bit, for a bit, before moving on. Now I take 18mg/week and am content with my GI function... it's better than before I started taking peptides.

Obviously what works for me won't necessarily work for you, but if the goal is to lose weight using GLP1, cycling is presumptively antithetical towards that goal.
The maximum dose I used for Tirze was 7.5 mg/week, and I decided to titrate it down to 5 mg/week because of side effects (diarrhea). Then I moved to Reta, starting at 2 mg/week and titrating up to 6 mg/week. Again, I had significant diarrhea, so I went back to 5 mg/week and the diarrhea decreased a lot, but unfortunately my weight loss plateaued. I then decided to shorten the dosing interval to 5 mg every 5 days. After that, I added a small amount of Cagri (250 mcg/week), which I stopped after 6 weeks. A dose of 5 mg every 5 days seems to be my ideal dose; I used this regimen for about 2 months before deciding to stop because of the AF.
 
BLASIUS said:
The maximum dose I used for Tirze was 7.5 mg/week, and I decided to titrate it down to 5 mg/week because of side effects (diarrhea). Then I moved to Reta, starting at 2 mg/week and titrating up to 6 mg/week. Again, I had significant diarrhea, so I went back to 5 mg/week and the diarrhea decreased a lot, but unfortunately my weight loss plateaued. I then decided to shorten the dosing interval to 5 mg every 5 days. After that, I added a small amount of Cagri (250 mcg/week), which I stopped after 6 weeks. A dose of 5 mg every 5 days seems to be my ideal dose; I used this regimen for about 2 months before deciding to stop because of the AF.

Have you considered farther splitting the dose? I take a dose every 3.5 days, originally to control appetite/food noise but then carried on.

Splitting the dose still gives the same average exposure, but lowers the peaks which are considered to be the most likely cause/timing of symptoms.
 
woundcarping said:
Have you considered farther splitting the dose? I take a dose every 3.5 days, originally to control appetite/food noise but then carried on.

Splitting the dose still gives the same average exposure, but lowers the peaks which are considered to be the most likely cause/timing of symptoms.
Dose splitting helped but didn't remove diarrhea side effect completely.
 
I'm curious what the doctors have said about the diarrhea issues?
 
Interesting to see someone using psyllum husk for diarrhoea, I only found that out last year after having issues with it for decades from ulcerative colitis/ibs-d, I do not know of any other fiber supplements that can help diarrhoea, nearly all make it worse not better. Have you tried higher doses? Thankfully GLPs slow my gut down , I have not heard too many people describe longer tern diarrhoea as a glp side effect.

Are you still trying to lose weight? So is dropping the reta dose a reasonable option?

Sounds like the reta is not a significant factor in the AF, in theory it could increase rate but you do not have issues with rate control. The effect of reta on the heart is just something I am curious about.

I assume you have a doctor checking blood electrolytes at least sometimes, you do not want them getting messed up by the diarrhoea and having secondary effects on the cardiac conduction system.
 
BNLFL said:
I'm curious what the doctors have said about the diarrhea issues?
I spoke with my doctor and informed him that I needed to reduce my GLP1 dosage due to diarrhea and general gastrointestinal issues. He stated that while diarrhea itself likely would not cause AF, a sudden drop in blood pressure could.

I had a look on gemini AI and the answer was:

The relationship between GLP-1 receptor agonists (such as semaglutide) or dual GLP-1/GIP agonists (such as tirzepatide ) and atrial fibrillation is a subject of in-depth study. Clinical research highlights that the correlation is generally inverse : the use of these drugs is associated with a reduction in the risk of developing atrial fibrillation and a lower incidence of recurrence, although there are important nuances to consider.

🛡️ The Protective Effect (What Large Studies Show)​[archived internal link]
Clinical data indicates that GLP-1 agonists exert a protective effect on heart rhythm through two pathways:

1. Indirect Risk Reduction (Weight Loss and Metabolism)​[archived internal link]
Obesity and insulin resistance cause significant inflammatory stress on the heart, promoting the accumulation of fat around the myocardium (epicardial adipose tissue). This fat releases inflammatory molecules that alter the electrical activity of the atria, leading to fibrosis and atrial fibrillation.

The weight loss and metabolic improvement induced by molecules like tirzepatide remove this "fertile ground," reducing the heart's workload and negative remodeling of the atria.

2. Direct Risk Reduction (Independent of Weight)​[archived internal link]
Clinical studies show that $\text{GLP-1}$ agonists reduce the incidence of new-onset atrial fibrillation and the need for procedures such as cardioversions or ablations, with benefits observed even in patients who did not experience significant weight loss . This suggests a direct anti-inflammatory and electrical stabilizing effect on heart cells.

⚠️ Potential Triggers (The Risks)​[archived internal link]
Despite the long-term protective effect, there are temporary dynamics related to the use of these drugs that, in predisposed individuals, can act as a "trigger" for an arrhythmic episode:

1. Increase in Resting Heart Rate​[archived internal link]
It is well-documented that GLP-1 agonists cause a mild increase in resting heart rate (averaging 2-5 beats per minute) due to direct stimulation of specific receptors in the heart's sinus node. Although this increase is generally harmless, in a vulnerable or unstable heart, an elevation in baseline heart rate can sometimes trigger or facilitate an arrhythmic crisis.

2. Dehydration and Electrolyte Imbalances​[archived internal link]
Tirzepatide and other agonists drastically reduce appetite and, sometimes, the sensation of thirst. If gastrointestinal side effects (such as nausea or vomiting) occur, or if one simply forgets to drink, the risk of dehydration increases.

A reduction in body fluids causes a drop in blood pressure, which the body compensates for by releasing adrenaline.

This adrenergic spike, combined with the potential loss of vital minerals (such as potassium and magnesium) through sweat or reduced dietary intake, constitutes a strong trigger for atrial fibrillation.

​[archived internal link]
 
lessthanhalf said:
Interesting to see someone using psyllum husk for diarrhoea, I only found that out last year after having issues with it for decades from ulcerative colitis/ibs-d, I do not know of any other fiber supplements that can help diarrhoea, nearly all make it worse not better. Have you tried higher doses? Thankfully GLPs slow my gut down , I have not heard too many people describe longer tern diarrhoea as a glp side effect.
When I reached 7.5mg/w of tirze or 6mg/w reta, I faced a very bad diarrhea side effect (it was a sort of shit blast and continuous abdomninal cramps during the night). With 5mg/w reta What I've noticed is that my stool is fairly loose, and when I take psyllium husk, it becomes more formed and creamy.

lessthanhalf said:
Are you still trying to lose weight? So is dropping the reta dose a reasonable option?
I need to loose at least other 15 Kg, I would like to continue with the max dose I was able to manage (5mg/5days), but I want to fix AF and light diarrhea before to continue.
 
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