I would like to see some studies with people within a normal BMI take microdoses to study the insulin sensitivity affects and visceral fat.yrrdead said:
Opinion/anecdote: Don't be afraid of increasing your dose
- Thread starter gulangaloid
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One of the studies referenced (this one: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550413122003126 ) had an interesting titration schedule of 0.1mg, 0.3mg, 1mg, 3mg, 4.5mg, 6mg which is quite different from other studies. I would guess that this study was one of the very early ones, since it included both obese mice as well as human subjects.Calm Logic said:
In humans, doses of 0.1mg, 0.3mg and 1mg did not show statistically significant weight loss after one dose. 3mg, 4.5mg and 6mg showed a substantial statistically significant weight loss after one dose, and for 4.5mg and 6mg the weight loss persisted at those same levels for up to 45 days after that single dose!
My guess is that the results of that study are the reason why big clinical trials started at 2mg.
In response more to the original post than some of the comments.
There is a reason to increase the dose to or towards the standard maximum dose, that is strongly supported by the scientific evidence.
Most people taking these medications have significant problems with obesity, this does not apply as much to bodybuilders taking it or those who are younger than 40 or 50 or those who are only overweight. But the people with longstanding significant obesity , are most of the time at significant risk for cardiovascular disease, partly as obesity itself is a significant risk factor and also as high blood pressure, impaired glucose tolerance or diabetes, high cholesterol levels and lower levels of exercise, are strongly associated with obesity and the development of cardiovascular disease and stroke.
GLP medications ( less/not proven for retatrutide at this point ) reduce the chances of heart attack, stroke, heart failure , cardiovascular caused death, and death from all causes. As well as reduced blood pressure, reduced blood sugar and reduced cholesterol levels. Given that these are the commonest causes of death and disability as people age, this effect from GLP medications increases the chances of surviving in good health as you age. The doses of semaglutide and tirzepatide that have been proven to have these effects are the doses used in the trials, 2.4mg or lower if not tolerated for semaglutide, and 15mg for tirzepatide. The effect on improving these outcomes is partly due to the weight loss but the reductions in these levels and events is independent of weight loss, so the chances of these things happening is still reduced even if not much weight loss occurs.
GLP medications may also reduce the risks of developing alzheimer's disease, although recent studies suggest this may not be true, but there are more trials still underway. They also reduce the risks of developing quite a large number of cancers, including the most common ones, but may or may not increase the risks of thyroid and kidney cancer.
Lower doses of GLP medications will still have beneficial effects, but it is reasonable to assume that lower doses will have lesser effects. Demonstrating these effects requires large numbers of patients and long studies, and are therefore very expensive, so it is unlikely studies will be done at lower doses to prove this one way or another.
TLDR Taking GLP medications long term reduce the chances of most of the bad things that can happen to you or kill you as you get older, there is no reason to believe that lower doses are equally effective at doing this.
Increasing doses slowly is generally a good idea, and probably more important when it is being done without medical supervision, which applies to a lot of the people on this forum, but especially for older persons with significant obesity there are good reasons to increase the dose to the standard maximum dose.
There is a reason to increase the dose to or towards the standard maximum dose, that is strongly supported by the scientific evidence.
Most people taking these medications have significant problems with obesity, this does not apply as much to bodybuilders taking it or those who are younger than 40 or 50 or those who are only overweight. But the people with longstanding significant obesity , are most of the time at significant risk for cardiovascular disease, partly as obesity itself is a significant risk factor and also as high blood pressure, impaired glucose tolerance or diabetes, high cholesterol levels and lower levels of exercise, are strongly associated with obesity and the development of cardiovascular disease and stroke.
GLP medications ( less/not proven for retatrutide at this point ) reduce the chances of heart attack, stroke, heart failure , cardiovascular caused death, and death from all causes. As well as reduced blood pressure, reduced blood sugar and reduced cholesterol levels. Given that these are the commonest causes of death and disability as people age, this effect from GLP medications increases the chances of surviving in good health as you age. The doses of semaglutide and tirzepatide that have been proven to have these effects are the doses used in the trials, 2.4mg or lower if not tolerated for semaglutide, and 15mg for tirzepatide. The effect on improving these outcomes is partly due to the weight loss but the reductions in these levels and events is independent of weight loss, so the chances of these things happening is still reduced even if not much weight loss occurs.
GLP medications may also reduce the risks of developing alzheimer's disease, although recent studies suggest this may not be true, but there are more trials still underway. They also reduce the risks of developing quite a large number of cancers, including the most common ones, but may or may not increase the risks of thyroid and kidney cancer.
Lower doses of GLP medications will still have beneficial effects, but it is reasonable to assume that lower doses will have lesser effects. Demonstrating these effects requires large numbers of patients and long studies, and are therefore very expensive, so it is unlikely studies will be done at lower doses to prove this one way or another.
TLDR Taking GLP medications long term reduce the chances of most of the bad things that can happen to you or kill you as you get older, there is no reason to believe that lower doses are equally effective at doing this.
Increasing doses slowly is generally a good idea, and probably more important when it is being done without medical supervision, which applies to a lot of the people on this forum, but especially for older persons with significant obesity there are good reasons to increase the dose to the standard maximum dose.
I have had rise in BPM with Reta, since I got to 2mg? from 60 up to 70-80. It was a surprise to see 100-109Waclive said:
When I started GLP-1, it was with a compounding pharmacy. I started at their suggested dose and was so sick for three weeks. I felt like I had the flu or something worse. My blood pressure dropped, I passed out, and I ended up with a cut on my head and a wrist broken in three places plus a week in the hospital. That was the first time I had encountered dosage gone wrong.
Fortunately, since then I have discovered the wonderful gray market and also plenty of educational sources to guide me along. I am over 60, and I have lost 25 pounds since July using Reta. I am finally experiencing less joint pain and feel so much better about myself. I have carried that weight for about 30 years and spent thousands of dollars trying to lose it.
My family rats are now using GLP and they started at 5 units, and they are moving up very slowly. They have all successfully lost weight and had little to no side effects. I recommend everyone to follow what your body is telling you.
I do recommend that you read everything you can from well-informed people. But be careful and do not make decisions after just reading 2-3 or more articles from just one source. I have discovered lots of variations, and I recommend you try to find out what experiences someone has had under what circumstances before following guidelines.
Good luck. I am on to more peptide studies to help with some of these aging issues. I have had 2 surgeries on my wrist, and I really need to know how to get it healed!!!
Fortunately, since then I have discovered the wonderful gray market and also plenty of educational sources to guide me along. I am over 60, and I have lost 25 pounds since July using Reta. I am finally experiencing less joint pain and feel so much better about myself. I have carried that weight for about 30 years and spent thousands of dollars trying to lose it.
My family rats are now using GLP and they started at 5 units, and they are moving up very slowly. They have all successfully lost weight and had little to no side effects. I recommend everyone to follow what your body is telling you.
I do recommend that you read everything you can from well-informed people. But be careful and do not make decisions after just reading 2-3 or more articles from just one source. I have discovered lots of variations, and I recommend you try to find out what experiences someone has had under what circumstances before following guidelines.
Good luck. I am on to more peptide studies to help with some of these aging issues. I have had 2 surgeries on my wrist, and I really need to know how to get it healed!!!
A unit means nothing if you don't know what the concentration happens to be. There is also the possibility that it is a typo and she meant to say mg instead of unit. Either way the point being made is that she upped her dose by a small amount and had an unpleasant reaction.dndgeek said:
I got the sunburn feel with my first pin of 1mg. I am just ignoring it as best I can. I'm at 5mg now its still at a bearable level .. but I do worry about what its going to be like at higher doses. Considering that I need to lose at least another 100 pounds I think that I will eventually need to get to 8mg - 12mg.BellyD said:
Yeah I forgot the math. I reconned a 30mg with 3ml bac. I have been pinning 1.2, every 3 days, and that day decided to do 1.3. I lowered my tirz to 1.1, to start the switch over. and see what that changes. I believe thats a change of 100 mcg.MsGizmo said:
Labcat said:
I didn’t see where OP had been on it before? What I see is OP is a low responder since they didn’t lose until they hit max dose. If there are hyper-responders it makes sense there are hypo (low) responders. The dice roll is no one really knows their response until they take it. We can make educated guesses based on research and trial data, but truly n=1, it’s individual.
I agree it’s good to see the spectrum of what people are seeing. I’m sure it’s frustrating being a slow/low responder. I’ve had the same cards handed to me with other medical conditions. “This should work! Oh wait… looks like that doesn’t work for you.” #ThanksImCured
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I disagree that people should ignore low and slow “unless you find yourself being a super responder.” (OP’s first paragraph). There’s a whole lot of space between that shouldn’t be brushed aside.
Added: we don’t know the details of OP’s mixing and dosing. I assume the best: that they did their homework. But plenty of people make errors here. Mixology is college-level chemistry. Maybe they’re off a decimal point (under dosing).
@gulangaloid I am betting my next drink order you’ve already done this, but have you used a couple of mixing calculators to check your recon mix?
I don't think its a good idea to try and plan out your dosages of a GLP1 that far in advance. My advice is to take a new dose and wait a few weeks at that level to see how your body reacts to it. Only after that should you decide what your next step should be.Foggy-Hollow said:
Sure I will probably eventually get to max recommended dosage because I have a lot of weight to lose .. but this is a marathon not a sprint. There is nothing wrong with staying at a lower dose for a few extra weeks if that dose is giving you results.
From everything I've gathered, the most important thing is to stay at the lowest effective dose for as long as possible. It's better for the wallet and so you don't plateau as quick. I'm not sure how this recommendation differs from someone who is actively working out VS someone who hasn't gotten to that stage in their journey.
There are people who experience good initial weight loss with 1 mg of reta. I can't imagine, but everyone is different.
For tirz, a therapeutic dose is considered 5 mg by the drug companies (one third of the max dose). So I try to get at least 5 mg now. For starting tirz, many people I know couldn't wait to go from 2.5 mg to 5 mg.
My internist seems to think almost everyone should try to get to the max (15 mg of tirz). But I have had bad sides at 7.5 mg, even after being on 12.5 mg briefly.
For tirz, a therapeutic dose is considered 5 mg by the drug companies (one third of the max dose). So I try to get at least 5 mg now. For starting tirz, many people I know couldn't wait to go from 2.5 mg to 5 mg.
My internist seems to think almost everyone should try to get to the max (15 mg of tirz). But I have had bad sides at 7.5 mg, even after being on 12.5 mg briefly.
Too bad this is in the Reta section, only. Titration choices are a big deal for folks in general. (IMO) I like the terms like easy responders and resistant responders. Me being thick/dense skinned squatch. My doc, being the opposite. Im just glad he understands this. My scale didn't move for 120+ days. If that doesn't mess with your head. . . .
So give us thick folks a break too. 2 months to double check. 2 more months to slowly titrate up. This post better not have jinxed it.
So give us thick folks a break too. 2 months to double check. 2 more months to slowly titrate up. This post better not have jinxed it.
Since it seems like my thoughts are being misrepresented and made into skillfully dispatched strawmen, I want to clarify one thing; I specifically said: increasing dose (assuming side effects are tolerated) is going to help people trying to deal with obesity (the people the drug was meant for) provided that the doses and the titration are in line with the clinical trials.
I did not and am not advocating for recklessly blowing up your dose as quickly as possible. I was only ever advocating for following the titration schedules and doses that the late stage clinical trials and medical researchers with MD/PhDs are using, as well as the titration schedules that are currently being used for drugs like tirzepatide, which is prescribed by doctors. I am not saying to go up 2mg a week, I am not saying to start at 6mg, I am merely advocating for following what the actual medical people are doing (assuming side effects are tolerated) . This is not even considering that in fact the researchers felt confident enough to start some people at higher, and even the maximum doses for the sake of the trials, which I would personally not suggest.
If this disturbs you, and you feel COMPELLED to warn against any dose besides .5mg, I am not sure what to tell you, other than if it works for you, I am happy for you.
Side note: I would obviously advocate for doing all of this under the close supervision of a doctor, which I would of course suggest for even gray sema or tirz, but as this is an unapproved research chemical, I can only say that I would do it as long as you feel comfortable telling your doctor you are doing something fairly outside of the box.
I did not and am not advocating for recklessly blowing up your dose as quickly as possible. I was only ever advocating for following the titration schedules and doses that the late stage clinical trials and medical researchers with MD/PhDs are using, as well as the titration schedules that are currently being used for drugs like tirzepatide, which is prescribed by doctors. I am not saying to go up 2mg a week, I am not saying to start at 6mg, I am merely advocating for following what the actual medical people are doing (assuming side effects are tolerated) . This is not even considering that in fact the researchers felt confident enough to start some people at higher, and even the maximum doses for the sake of the trials, which I would personally not suggest.
If this disturbs you, and you feel COMPELLED to warn against any dose besides .5mg, I am not sure what to tell you, other than if it works for you, I am happy for you.
Side note: I would obviously advocate for doing all of this under the close supervision of a doctor, which I would of course suggest for even gray sema or tirz, but as this is an unapproved research chemical, I can only say that I would do it as long as you feel comfortable telling your doctor you are doing something fairly outside of the box.
I plummeted 11 lbs. in 3 days at 1mg, was a bit disconcerting at first and I was glad I started with a low dose. It has since slowed down (only been a couple weeks). I'm down about 15 lbs.Calm Logic said:
Some people are super responders as they sayThadeus said:
A lot of people have significant inflammation and fixing that can drop a lot of weight that is water all at once. (Face can look significantly different) Did you feel like you had to pee a lot at first?Thadeus said:
I've been in tirz for 2 years and still not made it to max dose and constantly fighting side effects. It has worked though as I am down over 200lbs or 47% and falling. like someone said, "it's a marathon, not a sprint."
I did for about two days, I think it was most likely water weight. My ankles got skinnier too, I didn't even realize I was holding fluid there, but noticed way more definition and vascularity in my calves. It has evened out over the next couple weeks to approximately 4 lbs. lost per week.
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