Let's talk GLP1's downfall - MUSCLE LOSS

[hexagonal]

I think Primo would make people gain weight. Maybe from hunger, muscle gains or water retention, and a LOT of people only care about the numbers on the scale. Anavar would be better at just preserving muscle and has fewer side effects, but I’ve been having trouble finding it. It also isn’t a peptide though. lol. I had an India source but he’s been slipping lately.

As I learn more about these peps, and I see people on here talking about random Peptides, a thought that comes to my mind is “HGH does that.” I’ve wasted a lot of money on peptides that I should have just spent on GH. Like AOD, Ipamorelin, Sermorelin, GHK, BPC-157, TB-500, 5-Amino-1-MQ, ARA-290, etc. All were money down the drain and now I’m stuck with partial kits of many.

Adding 2-4iu of HGH has insane benefits for healing, skin elasticity, muscle growth, weight loss support, sleep, cognitive health; and the list goes on.

Aside from the GLP-1s, I’ve only had real results with AICAR, Glutathione and HGH. I’m convinced many of peptides are proverbial “Snake Oil.”

Then there is the mental and physical side of this. If we can be frank, something made each one of us overweight. That something usually was not resistance training. If you don’t lift some weights or another form of resistance training you will not experience Hypertrophy, and you lose muscle.

Problem with anavar is it'll still shut down natural test production, too.

How long do you guys typically cycle on HGH?

My IGF-1 is 192, so is slightly above average to start (for a 48-year-old).

The median IGF-1 of a 20-year-old male:

365 days a year is my plan.

 

[Calm Logic]

Not to open a can of worms: How high is too high for IGF-1 for you? In other words, what is your comfort zone? Up to 300, 400? For life or?

 

[Divide By Zero]

I've been riding the recomp line for macros for a long time and have actually gained muscle. I think most people don't take true advantage of the GLP's and continue their previous habits, using chemical solutions to salve lifestyle problems. I'm willing to bet they didn't even get enough protein before GLP's, and with reduced intake, they certainly aren't getting it now.

 

[hexagonal]

Not to open a can of worms: How high is too high for IGF-1 for you? In other words, what is your comfort zone? Up to 300, 400? For life or?

4IU puts me right around 500.

Not sure about for life, but not concerned for the short to medium term.

Can always drop down a bit if I feel like it's too much.

 

[tul9033]

I had an India source but he’s been slipping lately.

Was this Pharma Bridge Export? I had my first order with him 2 months ago and the package got seized. He will reship with 50% payment. However, he kept insisting I give him my neighbors address. Ummm, no. I have been using a new guy who's been really good to work with. Ships the same day at some of the best prices. I think the key is try to keep it to a few products and keep the packages as small as possible. If you want a bunch of general meds like antibiotics just go through buy pharma.

By the way we were talking about PO boxes a while back. I tried to get one in the US and nobody would rent one without an approval process that goes through USPS. I thought the whole reason for a PO Box was the anonymity! Not round here!

 

[Calm Logic]

However, he kept insisting I give him my neighbors address.

Oh wow. That is weird, especially if the re-shipment would also arrive by USPS.

Feel free to mention your new guy.

I've been lucky so far, with my three shipments from Kawal going through customs in 24 hours.

Do you have a UPS store near you, for a box with a street address?

 

[AndyPanda]

Was this Pharma Bridge Export? I had my first order with him 2 months ago and the package got seized. He will reship with 50% payment. However, he kept insisting I give him my neighbors address. Ummm, no. I have been using a new guy who's been really good to work with. Ships the same day at some of the best prices. I think the key is try to keep it to a few products and keep the packages as small as possible. If you want a bunch of general meds like antibiotics just go through buy pharma.

By the way we were talking about PO boxes a while back. I tried to get one in the US and nobody would rent one without an approval process that goes through USPS. I thought the whole reason for a PO Box was the anonymity! Not round here!

The reason they ask for a different address is because once something is seized, your name and address goes onto a list and your other packages will receive extra scrutiny.

USPS is not your friend. If you want something resembling anonymity, get a box at the UPS store or similar 3P situation.

 

[syndet2x]

50% of my last order is stateside. Yeah i thought the "extra address" ask was peculiar, but price is right. interesting call on the "will call" drop, i'll investigate local options.

I have now lost 1.4# lean mass during 49.6# loss on Tirz. TRT/HCG/k-10, i put 5-Amino into 000caps and filled with methylene blue, and did what i could to eat protein, Biltong is my go to. Kept low dose T3 (b.i.d.) to preclude total collapse of metabolism, been relatively successful with intermittent fasting low-carb, have to run some serum labs for second half (as supply chain issues are mostly sorted). something to the NNMTi and improving sirt, so i'll stay the course just rotate research chems. maybe its where i'm at metabolically, but low-dose slu didn't "get it done" for me either.

This remaining 50# i'm ramping SS-31 w/Tesa and contemplating HCG "near" monotherapy spiked with different esters; throwing SS-31+MotsC so i can have energy to lift on extreme calorie restriction. VF is still a disturbing 17%, so glutathione about to go in along with Carnitine (or Lipo-C). My concern with 'real' HGH is the IGF, since already flirting with t2dm. i heard tesa+ipa or tesa+aod could work, as real HGH alternative.

so i'm curious as well what IGF-1 reading to aim for...keeping on this thread, and i'll report back (although 50 days from 67, data'll be a bit of an edge case)

I agree about collagen loss, using KLOW and likely stack oxandrolone plus cartalax (i too wonder if latter is snake oil, when compared to the former) once i pass 3-6 weeks consistency in the gym (ain't there yet). plenty of joint+spine setbacks to 'work around', so using low-dose tadalafil to improve blood flow and nutrient circulation. I've an overall oral mito support regimen, but frankly pinning NAD (vitamin B4) would be cheaper.

You'd guess if a fellow gym rat, long-term shutdown on TRT, so low-dose oral isn't as big a deal for me as eventual axis reset, hence the HCG and probably HMG "shooters" if i don't think i'm getting moneys worth/results from k-10.

the silver lining so far is that the strategy is clearly staving off sarcopenia as the blubber is shedding, based on lean mass retention. what helped is methylation of B-vitamins, my folic acid over high normal, and i'm pretty sure hammering Vitamin D into midrange (10k daily with 25k once per week), and 100mg DHEA, stopped conversion dilution. free test is above normal along with serum: split dosing 200mg weekly. if the HCG modulation fails, then this'll be the fall back

My sleep is jacked from years on multi-shift; clean HGH may be a go to pretty soon, since research with tesa, dsip, and shortly pinealon is being put to the "test".

 

[tul9033]

Oh wow. That is weird, especially if the re-shipment would also arrive by USPS.

Feel free to mention your new guy.

I've been lucky so far, with my three shipments from Kawal going through customs in 24 hours.

Do you have a UPS store near you, for a box with a street address?

Not a slight on Kawal at all, I think he was just trying to do what he could to assure delivery. It does suck I had to pay an additional 50% for my order which was mostly glutathione.

I've received probably 30 shipments from India and only 3 have been seized. If I'm on a list they are letting the majority of my stuff through. Ironically, they all had nandrolone in them which I'm not even taking, but have been woo'd by the joint relief touted by users of it.

I tried getting a PO box at the UPS store and they were the ones saying once approved by USPS my box would be setup. Not sure if it's just this store or what but I wasn't able to get the anonymity I was looking for.

If someone needs a new guy to try, message me. I don't want to post his info and him get a bunch of time wasting inquiries. I know what I want, What's App my order, and then pay with Remitly and he delivers. In general, like I said before, for anything controlled it's best to stick to that product and keep the shipping box small to avoid customs scrutiny.

 

[Calm Logic]

On the one hand, I don't see a need for a UPS or PO box either since the guys on the Meso forum would be screwed. And like you said before:

They are going to have to lab test it to even know what it is and even then the whole "For Research" subterfuge is in play.

On the other hand, even Google Gemini is concerned/paranoid:

If an address has been involved in receiving tirzepatide through unauthorized or illegal channels in the past, it's highly probable that US Customs and other federal agencies are tracking it and will be more vigilant about future shipments to that location. The efforts to combat illegal tirzepatide are significant due to patient safety concerns and intellectual property rights.

US Customs and Border Protection (CBP) and other federal agencies like the FDA do track addresses that have received illicit or unapproved Human Growth Hormone (HGH) in the past.

 

[Calm Logic]

New oral drug may treat diabetes, obesity without muscle loss

A new oral drug may be able to treat type 2 diabetes and obesity without impacting muscle mass as an alternative to GLP-1 drugs such as Ozempic, the results of a phase 1 clinical trial suggest.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

...Muscle tissue is metabolically active, so it burns more calories at rest than fat. When someone loses muscle during weight loss, this causes their resting metabolic rate to slow, which can make it tough to continue losing weight or maintain weight loss.

Muscle also helps regulate blood sugar by absorbing glucose from the bloodstream. Losing muscle can make blood sugar harder to control and worsen insulin resistance.

The new drug is based on a beta-2 molecule. Beta-2 medications [such as albuterol and clenbuterol] can cause an increased risk for heart problems, but the researchers say the way they developed the new drug causes “little or no increase” in cardiac lesions or hypertrophy...

 

[Needsalife]

So you've lost an enormous amount of weight. Have you noticed how much muscle mass you've lost?

Arguably the biggest drawback to GLP-1's is the loss of muscle mass. Many in the healthcare industry are espousing an early death due to GLP-1's rapid weight loss going hand in hand with rapid muscle loss. Older GLP-1 patients losing so much muscle mass they cannot gain back and will no longer be able to support their own body weight as they age.

Let's talk about gaining this muscle mass back. We have some great tools at our disposal: CJC-1295, Ipamorelin, Tesamorelin, GH, ABS.

What are you trying and what have been the results?

1. There’s muscle loss no matter what way you lose weight.

2. It makes sense because at 170 lbs I no longer need the muscles to support and move a 245 lb frame.

3. The percentage of muscle lost is debatable—studies are all over the place.

With all the above I still believe weight bearing exercise should be in every exercise program if you’re losing weight. Also prioritizing protein and taking collagen supplements is a good idea.

 

[DoubleK]

This thread has been super helpful. I’m about 4 months into sema and down 34 lbs so far which I’m thrilled about! But yeah, the glute deflation is real I noticed it the most after long walks when I felt more wobbly than usual. I didn’t even think it was muscle loss at first, just figured it was fat redistribution or something.

I’ve started upping protein and doing light resistance bands every other day (working from home makes it easier), and I’m seeing improvement I think. But I still feel kind of lost about what counts as enough protein or what workouts help most.

 

[hexagonal]

This thread has been super helpful. I’m about 4 months into sema and down 34 lbs so far which I’m thrilled about! But yeah, the glute deflation is real I noticed it the most after long walks when I felt more wobbly than usual. I didn’t even think it was muscle loss at first, just figured it was fat redistribution or something.

I’ve started upping protein and doing light resistance bands every other day (working from home makes it easier), and I’m seeing improvement I think. But I still feel kind of lost about what counts as enough protein or what workouts help most.

About 1g per lb of lean body mass.

As a newbie, pretty much any new stimulus to a muscle will work, but in the medium to long term, you have to take the muscle close to failure to provide it the level of stimulus needed to signal to your body to either preserve or grow it. I personally think a bench and adjustable dumbbells is probably the best bang for your buck/time for a home gym on a limited budget and minimal space, and you can definitely hit your full body with them, but you can do it with resistance bands, body weight, etc., it just tends to mean longer workouts with more reps to get close to failure. (And of course if space/budget are bigger, you can go way past dumbbells and a bench, too.)

 

[Liber_Pater]

Resistance training and adequate protein intake are enough to stave off muscle loss for most people.

Increasing your IGF-1 might increase the muscle satellite cell proliferation but that won't do much of anything without the resistance training and protein as well.

This is the way!

 

[Liber_Pater]

I thought this was a really interesting take on muscle loss with GLP-1s:

2:03:45

Dr. DeFronzo isn’t too worried about lean muscle loss with these meds because, overall, they help people with obesity move more and improve their health in so many ways. The benefits far outweigh the downsides for most people.

Sure, they might not be the best choice for an 80-year-old at high risk for sarcopenia, but for younger people—especially those with prediabetes or type 2 diabetes—these drugs can be game-changers for insulin resistance. As he puts it, food addiction is a huge health concern , and GLP-1s could be a key part of the solution.

This was perhaps the best podcast by Attia. Learned so much from Defronzo who is truly a pioneer in diabetes research and treatment. Amazing how there were several topics that even Attia was simply wrong in his understanding. This podcast is ~2.75 hours long but I highly recommend it. Defronzo also touches on drugs in the pipeline to augment glp1 treatments that would generate muscle growth (i.e. to help with treatment of sarcopenia).

 

[touringsedan]

Bimagrumab has the potential to fix this issue, although Eli Lilly bought the company that developed it and will likely charge a huge premium for this when/if it becomes available.

But in human testing, Semaglutide + Gimagrumab led to a 22% weight loss, of which 100% was fat (so no muscle loss) and they gained 2.5% more lean muscle mass.

GDF8 and activin A blockade protects against GLP-1–induced muscle loss while enhancing fat loss in obese male mice and non-human primates - Nature Communications

Myostatin and activin A are the two primary negative regulators of muscle mass. Blocking these circulating ligands during GLP-1 therapy induces improved body composition through preservation of lean mass and enhanced fat mass loss in obese primates.

www.nature.com

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/bimagrumab

Also of note, this sadly isn't a peptide or long chain protein that we may get access to, but a monoclonal antibody drug which will make it very difficult to manufacture.

 

[DoubleK]

About 1g per lb of lean body mass.

As a newbie, pretty much any new stimulus to a muscle will work, but in the medium to long term, you have to take the muscle close to failure to provide it the level of stimulus needed to signal to your body to either preserve or grow it. I personally think a bench and adjustable dumbbells is probably the best bang for your buck/time for a home gym on a limited budget and minimal space, and you can definitely hit your full body with them, but you can do it with resistance bands, body weight, etc., it just tends to mean longer workouts with more reps to get close to failure. (And of course if space/budget are bigger, you can go way past dumbbells and a bench, too.)

That actually makes a lot of sense. thank you! I’ve definitely been guilty of stopping way before failure just because I felt tired or was bored I didn’t realize how important it was to push that far, especially with bands.

I’ve been debating whether to invest in a bench and dumbbells since space is kind of tight, but you’re right, it might be worth it long-term if I’m serious about building strength and keeping muscle on this journey. Appreciate the clear breakdown, especially for us newbies still figuring it out!

 

[mousey]

Bimagrumab has the potential to fix this issue, although Eli Lilly bought the company that developed it and will likely charge a huge premium for this when/if it becomes available.

But in human testing, Semaglutide + Gimagrumab led to a 22% weight loss, of which 100% was fat (so no muscle loss) and they gained 2.5% more lean muscle mass.

GDF8 and activin A blockade protects against GLP-1–induced muscle loss while enhancing fat loss in obese male mice and non-human primates - Nature Communications

Myostatin and activin A are the two primary negative regulators of muscle mass. Blocking these circulating ligands during GLP-1 therapy induces improved body composition through preservation of lean mass and enhanced fat mass loss in obese primates.

www.nature.com

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/bimagrumab

Also of note, this sadly isn't a peptide or long chain protein that we may get access to, but a monoclonal antibody drug which will make it very difficult to manufacture.

Is anyone selling this one yet? I know the gym/royd bros are going to be all over it when available. If it causes any muscle loss I'm sure they'll tell us about it.

 

[hexagonal]

Is anyone selling this one yet? I know the gym/royd bros are going to be all over it when available. If it causes any muscle loss I'm sure they'll tell us about it.

Monoclonal antibodies are massively more difficult to produce than peptides or steroids.

It's not impossible - China produces plenty of monoclonal antibodies in general - but they're a lot more expensive and the production capacity is more limited in general. I wouldn't expect to see these in the grey market anytime soon