"HCG monotherapy" – I tried it so you didn't have to!

[Calm Logic]

My outlook is, life is too short not to be optimized.

Of course, not optimal for longevity. Hence the YOLO argument all the time (and trying to manage higher hematocrit or explain it away, and the lack of cardiovascular imaging at Meso). The ideal would be something optimal for lifespan as well, which is more the domain of peptides.

Certainly, long-term supraphysiological testosterone is a known cardiovascular risk at the cellular and structural level. The only question is how much, even with perfect bloodwork.

 

[gusterbuster]

Of course, not optimal for longevity. Hence the YOLO argument all the time (and trying to manage higher hematocrit or explain it away, and the lack of cardiovascular imaging at Meso). The ideal would be something optimal for lifespan as well, which is more the domain of peptides.

Certainly, long-term supraphysiological testosterone is a known cardiovascular risk at the cellular and structural level. The only question is how much, even with perfect bloodwork.

There are the performance optimal and longevity optimal. I aim to be where that ven diagram intersects. Like castration in animals, shows longer life spans. I prefer to be able to split my partner like a log up until the end.

Where you land on the performance/longevity spectrum is for each individual to decide.

 

[birdwhacker]

There are the performance optimal and longevity optimal. I aim to be where that ven diagram intersects. Like castration in animals, shows longer life spans.

Where you land on the performance/longevity spectrum is for each individual to decide.

Well said, wow. I started to say something similar but didn't know how to word it regarding how an individual might prefer to balance risk and quality of life.

 

[Calm Logic]

The problem is partly marketing, with lots of marketing for testosterone and not much else. The whole low-T industry has made everything seem hormone related. As guys get older, endothelial function one way to boost energy, such as by diet, 5 mg daily of Cialis, exercise as a vasodilator, etc. Better blood flow also helps with recovery.

But if you want to be dependent on sourcing controlled substances for decades (rather than on boosting your body's production of testosterone to some degree), knock yourself out.

 

[birdwhacker]

The problem is partly marketing, with lots of marketing for testosterone and not much else. The whole low T industry has made everything seem hormone related. As guys get older, endothelial function one way to boost energy, such as by diet, 5 mg daily of Cialis, exercise as a vasodilator, etc. Better blood flow also helps with recovery.

But if you want to be dependent on controlled substances for decades, knock yourself out.

You might enjoy the "life sausage." Peter Watts ought to be right up your alley.

No Moods, Ads or Cutesy Fucking Icons » The Life Sausage

As far as a problem... I don't know that there is a problem. I haven't tried boosting myself to maximum reference range yet. If I get there and don't feel any different, I suppose we can say it's overhyped.

 

[gusterbuster]

But if you want to be dependent on sourcing controlled substances for decades, knock yourself out.

I dont understand this argument. I have a shit thyroid and will need to take that med daily for the rest of my life. Oh no, a few extra shots a week. A person with adhd is likely dependent on a schedule 2 drug.

Not saying this applies to anyone here, but all the people I've met through my travels, interested in longevity as in maximum life span, are afraid to die because they have an unlived life. Noting noble, like to see their kids graduate and have grandkids. They are full of regrets. Not taking risks. Didn't ask out that girl, didn't go after that promotion. Or fell into a life dictated by parents or society.

 

[gusterbuster]

There isn't anything to understand because it's an ideaological argument.

And to further illustrate how ridiculous the argument is. We are on a glp1 message board. A majority of us will be dependent on a glp1, sourced through the Grey market for the rest of our lives.

 

[Calm Logic]

Black market is very different from grey market.

The issue to me isn't longevity as much as healthspan per se. But they are usually tightly coupled in practice. And avoiding supraphysiological testosterone is one way to ensure healthspan. Many guys cannot resist going from TRT to TRT+. It is a slippery slope, which is part of the reason it is a controlled substance.

 

[Calm Logic]

GLPs are endorsed by the medical community at large. Testosterone for "optimization" is not. You can get compouned oxandrolone legally too with telehealth, which is insane outside of being a burn patient.

 

[gusterbuster]

For someone who has logic in your username, you sure love logical fallacies.

Ok, I went too far here and thats a personal attack. I apologize.

Currently completed midlife crisis and on here frisky before meeting up with my 23yo Latina gf as a 38 year old lol.

 

[BlueDog55]

Black market is very different from grey market.

Please explain the difference, I thought the Gray market was is the same as Black market it's just a way to soften the words for the weak at heart... or it just sounds less scary.

 

[birdwhacker]

GLPs are endorsed by the medical community at large. Testosterone for "optimization" is not. You can get compouned oxandrolone legally too with telehealth, which is insane outside of being a burn patient.

Funny, HRT for menopausal women who have stopped producing estrogen doesn't seem to be endorsed by the medical community at large.

The medical community at large still endorses Adderall for children. That tells you most of what you need to know.

 

[Meritocrat]

The war against testosterone is real and ongoing. This place evinces the downstream effects of an increasingly emasculated society. And if "grey" is intended to refer to legal grey area, that is only at the societal level. For individuals, AAS and GLP's are prescribed in various contexts. So they are at times, "legal". Besides, legality is not a judicious metric for the theoretical value of a substance. Jim Crow, segregation, marijuana, cocaine, etc were all "legal" at one time or another.

If we are considering the merits of a substance and attributing value to it, then firstly, supraphysiological amounts of testosterone weren't originally stated. Now, even if we were to account for normal-high amounts leading to eventual excess, condemning men to live emasculated lives with suboptimal testosterone amounts is, in my humble opinion, tyrannical and a nefarious violation. Medically, estrogen to testosterone amount is supposed to be at most around 1:20. With upper range of 54 for estrogen that is over 1000 for testosterone. The average amount in "healthy" men is around 450-500, for "medical" community.

Yet 390-400 is the average today while in the 1950's it was supposedly over 750. At the end of it all, it is easy to say that overdose of testosterone leads to shorter lifespan. A famous king once said before dying, "I would rather live one day as a tiger than a thousand as sheep".

Personally, I don't see 20000 days of living as a disabled, emasculated, person as being superior to living 12000 days as an able-bodied, satisfied, happy man.

P.S:- When it comes to "legal", most people are using GLP's that are not prescribed to them personally. I wouldn't call that legal so any attempted distinction between grey and black in this scenario is moot.

P.P.S:- Considering that hormones literally change the way a person thinks, acts, etc., raising one's testosterone is not just optimal, but mandatory as a man.

 

[Calm Logic]

P.P.S:- Considering that hormones literally change the way a person thinks, acts, etc., raising one's testosterone is not just optimal, but mandatory as a man.

And one can raise testosterone level without exogenous testosterone, including raising free testosterone with oral boron. Boron helps women too, with raising free testosterone.

Ranked: Options for Increasing FREE Testosterone (Men's Version)

Rank Method / Substance Primary Mechanism Why it's Ranked Here Est. Free T Increase 1 Exogenous Testosterone Direct Volume / Saturation The absolute ceiling. Floods the system and saturates SHBG until the remaining T stays bioavailable. 100% – 400%+ 2 HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin) Leydig Cell Stimulation (LH Analog) Directly mimics Luteinizing Hormone to force the testes to produce testosterone. Highly effective clinical intervention for maintaining testicular function. 50% – 100%+ 3 Enclomiphene (Enclo) Pituitary Stimulation Massively raises Total T via LH/FSH. Far more potent than any over-the-counter supplement. 50% – 100% 4 Boron (6–10mg) Natural SHBG Reduction The king of natural options. The only supplement that surgically targets and lowers SHBG levels. 25% – 35% 5 Resistance Training Insulin Sensitivity Heavy compound lifts (squats/deadlifts) improve metabolic health, signaling the liver to lower SHBG. 15% – 25% 6 Sleep (7.5–9 Hours) Hormonal Pulsatility The foundation. Poor sleep is a "T-killer." Deep sleep is when your body produces its daily T-supply. 15% – 20% 7 Tongkat Ali (400mg) HPTA & SHBG Support An adaptogen that "unsticks" T from SHBG. Best for guys with high SHBG but "normal" Total T. 12% – 20% 8 DHEA (25–50mg) Downstream Precursor Adds to the hormone pool. Most effective for men over 45 whose adrenal production has slowed. 10% – 15% 9 ZMA (Zinc/Magnesium) Enzymatic Support Zinc is a T-building block; Magnesium binds to SHBG to "block the blocker" from grabbing T. 10% – 15% 10 High Intensity Cardio Acute Endocrine Spike Short bursts/sprints trigger a sharp T-surge. Do NOT overdo it, or cortisol will reverse the effect. 5% – 10% 11 Ashwagandha Cortisol Suppression Lowers stress hormones. Since cortisol and T have an inverse relationship, this "frees" up your T. 10% – 15% 12 Pregnenolone Master Precursor Important for mood and neurosteroids, but T-conversion is unpredictable and often low in men. 2% – 5%

 

[birdwhacker]

And one can raise testosterone level without exogenous testosterone, including raising free testosterone with oral boron.

Oral boron is amazing. It's pretty much the only reason that I'm interested in exogenous test – the early days of correcting my boron deficiency made me much more capable. More energy, less grogginess, more sexual in a good way, more capable at work.

But then life happens and you can't maintain it.

Whatever levels you choose to target with your TRT, those are the levels that you stay at regardless of how you slept or how much junk food/alcohol you got into. I think the appeal is that it's more difficult to get stuck in the "vicious cycle."

Sort of like the "GLP" of being a man. If you decide to use it as a crutch, or abuse it, or find that it's intolerable and continue along that avenue, you'll end up harming your health and ultimately regressing to a pre-therapeutic lifestyle.

 

[Meritocrat]

And one can raise testosterone level without exogenous testosterone, including raising free testosterone with oral boron. Boron helps women too, with raising free testosterone.

Hmmm... theoretically, sure you could elevate it a bit. Let's say you ran the holy grail, hail mary stack of boron, L Carnitine L Tartrate, fenugreek, black ginger, etc. Let's add enclomiphene and HCG on top. Let's leave Kisspeptin and ORG-43902 out of it for now. If the average person spends all that money, suffers through munching all of them, how much would his test increase from 390 or 400? Let's allow for miracles and say a 90% increase. That is still below the maximum amount he could possess, and mind you, for a far cheaper rate with exo Test.

Anyway, let's look at this logically. The premise originally was about raising T-levels to around 1000 or high normal. If that can be accepted as a positive, then everything else about how and when, and why are tangential. Because, if we accept the necessity of testo, then it is a question of what method would be appropriate or desirable?

HCG monotherapy is certainly the oldest, tried-and-tested method. I dont consider it the best. Far from it.

 

[Calm Logic]

Many guys get to high normal without test by boosting their mid-range level of testosterone. Or they can get their free testosterone higher.

The only guys needing a test level of 1000+ are the ones going to prison or the ones working there.

 

[birdwhacker]

I wish you all would go to Meso, where you belong with the other guys there and their YOLO mentality.

And we wish you would go to another board, but here we are.

This is a board dedicated to hormone therapies and anabolic steroids. Expect to see a lot more steroid users here after GLP users hit their goal weight and start exploring other injectables.

 

[Meritocrat]

Many guys get to high normal without test by boosting their mid-range level of testosterone. Or they can get their free testosterone higher.

The only guys needing a test level of 1000+ are the ones going to prison or the ones working there.

Oh ok, so you still cannot accept that 1000 is within NORMAL range. I have had my T levels there and above that. I haven't yet served in prisons nor been one of their patrons. And I don't think the vast majority of real men have had that ignominy either.

Although, I have to wonder if your belligerence and disdain for anabolics, and your fondness for catabolics like GLPs, stems from anything resembling a "fox and sour grapes" paradigm. I hope not, however, the facts remain. 1000 is the normal limit for adult men. If you think that puts the wonderful bearers of this amount in prison, so be it. Us men hold testosterone as our favorite hormone. After all, every man first became male because of testosterone via SRY.

Our physiology is designed to relish the outcomes of high-normal androgens, both physically and mentally.

In fact, if I had to put it in words in the same vein as yours, men with high testosterone are not destined to go into prison, they are far likelier to go into women and send their seed for posterity, and propagation of their progeny: their purpose. Alpha f**ks, beta bucks, crude as it is, is accurate.

 

[Meritocrat]

I wish you all would go to Meso, where you belong with the other guys there and their YOLO mentality. But Zippity has only encouraged the endless bro science by having this bro subforum.

whoa! You really hate testosterone, huh? So 1000 being normal is bro-science for you? If facts are bro-science, then there really is no point in engaging further. Conversing in good faith in the presence of unwarranted vitriol is likely to lower our testosterone. Hard pass! You do you, sir. Have a pleasant night.

And we wish you would go to another board, but here we are.

This is a board dedicated to hormone therapies and anabolic steroids. Expect to see a lot more steroid users here after GLP users hit their goal weight and start exploring other injectables.

Honestly, why are you guys raging over this? I couldn't find any post that was so inflammatory for responses laced with ad hominem tirades. Did somebody resort to abuses or something? But hey, your own stance on hcg... I dont know who you want to fool by claiming you're pregnant, but there are easier ways to make money, you know. You dont need glucose daddies and child support hustles.